Versus Discussions and Comicbook Bias

DBZ vs. Comic Bias

I found an interesting post on this website.

I like versus discussions as the next person but the article brings an interesting point. Whether it is comic books, television, manga or just about any other medium, they all have different rules and different ways to gauge a hero's level. One hero could stomp any character in one universe and get stomped in another universe due to the nature of that universe's rules. Also, comic books are vastly different mediums from manga just as it is a different medium from literature so we cannot take much at face value. The truth is any character can defeat any character in any medium. So what do you guys think of this?

I think that these categories are largely in-comprehensive. What non Superhero-comicbooks written by one writer, like Bone, (there are many other examples, yes, but this is one I'm sure a decent amount of people are familiar with,)or even Superhero(ish) comics that are written by one writer, like Watchmen? What about manga/anime that aren't Fighting manga, that aren't like Naruto or Dragonball Z? What about Gundam, (G Gundam not withstanding,) Cowboy Bebop, Trigun? (Yes, it involves fighting, but Vash largely has the same skill and power at the end that he did at the beginning, at least in the anime.) I'm just thinking that, given what the descriptions seem to be talking about, (Marvel&DC Superhero Comics and Fighting Manga,) that we should probably narrow our topics a bit.

edited 30th Nov '13 4:10:21 PM by kkhohoho

That is an interesting article but...

This is simply not true at all. Some stories do follow that, but not even close to the majority. I am not even sure all fighting shonens follow that style either. Such statement is such outrageous I am not even sure what to make of it.

Also

That is just hilarious, considering how little manga stories are as lasting as the classical super heroes. It is actually the opposite. A manga story will have a beginning and an ending, but super heroes comics tend to operate in the assumption they will never end.

I understand what the article was trying to say, that comic book heroes tend to be more "static" in their power level while manga heroes are not, but these two statements are just so absurd I am baffled.

(also, the article really should be more specific it is talking about the Big Two super heroes comics and Shonen Fighting Series. Both "comics" and "anime/manga" are a tad broader than that)

PS:It is clear the article was about super heroes comics and Fighting Shonens, but I agree they should have been much clearer.

edited 30th Nov '13 4:18:54 PM by Heatth

I agree with this article. The problem of finding a base ground isn't just with manga, either; video games run aground of the same issue. I remember when Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe was announced, and the DC fanbase caught fire over the fact that nobody in Mortal Kombat should be able to lay a finger on a DC character, because even their most powerful character, Raiden, God of Thunder, can have his head torn off by Johnny Cage.

In gameplay, yes. In gameplay, so can Superman, because this is a fighting game where all the characters are equalized for balance purposes. Actually analyzing the characters' respective capabilities is a bit more complicated than just looking at who can beat who in the game, because the answer to that is everyone. It's a fighting game.

Comparing characters across different series is hard. Doing it across mediums? You need to decide on a base line before you can even go any further.

edited 30th Nov '13 4:34:01 PM by TobiasDrake

People really complained about Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe because of power levels? I don't buy it, Marvel vs Capcom had been out for a decade. I mean, if they really cared about power levels Shuma Gorath and Morrigan being on equal footing with Spider-man and Jill was just a long running Elephant in the Room?

Okay, Dark Stalkers is kind of obscure and Shuma is not exactly mainstream comics but you still have Spider-man punching out Hulk or Juggernaut. I think that is a trumped up cover story to try and get everyone to stop noticing that they chose the match up over much more demanded ones (Marvel vs DC, Street Fighter vs Mortal Combat). Personally, I think DC vs SNK should have been the way to go. West Vs East, equally diverse libraries (Sorry Midway, you fall short), obvious match ups (Superman vs Clark Steel, Superman vs Orochi, Mars people vs Martian Manhunter) obvious water tester, Legion Of Superheroes Legacy. Sequel: Legion Of Superheroes: Samurai Showdown! (Ala Children of the Atom to X-men vs Street Fighter)

Or maybe DC vs Nintendo though that might still get the "dammit, I wanted Nintendo vs Capcom" response (which Ace Attorney vs Professor Layton may be a preview to) I would still love to kick Superman's ass with Luigi. Or maybe Marvel vs Nintendo Pikachu vs Wolverine or Thor.

I think DC avoided doing business with SNK Playmore because of their being perpetually broke.

While I kid, I would have preferred it too. The real reason was because WB was in the process of, (or maybe they already did at that time) owning Midways Game properties. Also I think no one really bats an eyelash at Marvel vs Capcom because as a whole most of the Capcom characters are shown to be ridiculously powerful in their own right, and most Marvel heroes have strength that wildly differs as well, Most DC A listers, have strength that puts them into the Super Heavyweight catagory, and Mortal Combat Characters... well the only members of the cast that have super strength at all are the Shokans, Centaurs, Shao Kahn himself, Jax and Unaga.

edited 30th Nov '13 5:56:16 PM by SilentlyHonest

No they're not. They're the same medium.

They seems that way to me considering how it is often classfied in some circles.

@Tobias Drake

The thing is that there isn't really a base to gauge their abilities on. It isn't though X character can beat anyone in a fight but that doesn't mean any joe can take the character on.

You are right. However, this is completely irrelevant to the point being made. American super hero comic books and Japanese fighting shonens follow a whole different set of "rules". That is what GAP and the article meant and you know that.

In the context of the current discussion, saying comic books and manga are the same medium is as useful as saying literature is also the same medium. It is technically correct, but doesn't add anything to the talk and only risk to derail the topic.

Yes, manga is just Japanese comic books. But the expectations and assumptions one have when reading one is different from the other and that was what the discussion is about.

edited 1st Dec '13 2:20:56 PM by Heatth

(American Superhero) Comic Books and Manga are part of the same medium, but vastly different genres. Problem solved.

Anyhoo, that article makes a wildly erroneous assumption about comic book characters' feats being consistent. Power levels bounce randomly all over the place, characters randomly sprout new powers only to have them forgotten by the next writer, hell, things aren't even consistent within the same issue, or between one panel and the next! (in this case, I'm thinking specifically about an old issue of Spiderman, where he was fighting... the Absorbing Man and Titania, if I remember right... and the Absorbing Man hucks a boxcar at a train station full of civilians. Spiderman thinks 'My webbing can't stop that, but if I can just redirect the momentum a bit...' *thwip*... and in the next panel, the traincar is very clearly hanging stationary from the webbing while Spidey goes leaping after the villains. What.)

And for that matter, I'm not even talking (just) about Superman with the 'sprouting/forgetting' powers thing- how many writers, let alone readers, remember that Nightcrawler has perfect night vision and turns invisible in shadow (except for his eyes), that (Arch)Angel has superhumanly keen eyesight, or that Cyclops can do flawless planar geometry in his head for the funky trick shots he can do with his optic blasts (for that matter, half the time the writers seem to forget that he can do bank shots with his blasts)? And yes, that's specifically listed as a power of his. Just when you thought he couldn't get any dorkier...

Lobo's strength levels yo-yo up and down erratically, to the point where he's been fought hand-to-hand by a normal guy without tearing the normal guy to shreds, while in other issues, he's punched Superman through buildings. Spiderman's superstrength apparently gets forgotten half the time, and his spider sense' effectiveness ranges from 'wander absent-mindedly through a raging twenty-eight-way-firefight with all sides using full-auto' to 'tingling two seconds after getting punched in the back of the head'.

Don't get me wrong, I love comics, and manga can be a lot of fun too.

But consistency? Yeah, not so much.

I read With Foes Like These, Spider-man specifically states his webbing could not stop (I think it was a van tossed by Titania) but it could slow it down enough for some people to get out of the way. That was not an inconsistency.

A better example is from Spider-man unlimited #15 where Spider-man throws a truck semi truck, trailer&all (that should way more than ten tons) and it knocks out the incredible Hulk (the savage green version who just gets angry when shot by tank shells, artillery and air strikes). It was also out of character, since Spider-man usually does not cause that kind of property damage unless he is in revenge mode or something.

edited 15th Dec '13 10:28:39 AM by IndirectActiveTransport

That's kind of the point they were getting at. Since comics have so many different writers, inconsistencies are frequent, and comics fans tend to rely on official databooks and a general average of the characters' displays of power to get an idea of how strong they "really" are, with displays of power higher or lower than that dismissed as out-of-character.

Meanwhile, Shonen battle manga are relatively more consistent due to usually having just one writer, so if a character displays a level of power they never showed before, instead of being dismissed as inconsistent, it's treated as a sign that the character is actually more/less powerful than they were before. Though some of that's also due to the frequent use of My Kung-Fu Is Stronger Than Yours in shonen manga: characters becoming increasingly more powerful as the series goes on is practically expected.

edited 7th Dec '13 5:53:08 PM by RavenWilder

So basically that article is a lot of verbiage to say 'as a general rule, fighting shonen characters level up, superheroes don't'? I think that's generally accepted in these debates, honestly.

@Indirect Active Transport- thanks for supplying the story title; if memory is serving, the inconsistency I'm thinking of is that the webbing very clearly did stop the van/traincar/whatever it was, despite Spidey saying it wouldn't. Granted, it's a very minor thing that could be explained as easily as Spiderman underestimating the strength of his webbing, but it struck me at the time as being very strange that they'd make such a big deal of it narratively, only to have a complete anticlimax in the very next panel.

Actually, what usually happens is that the fans take the highest showings, wank them a bit, and then treat them as baseline. Whenever I read about a character I don't know about on a debate forum I usually assume that there's a think layer of exaggeration being applied.

It usually takes the non-fans to point out which feats are outliers and all of the low showings the character has.

This is very late, but the line you quoted meant exactly that. The sentence was just structured awkwardly.

Lord knows how many times I've seen the one panel where Deathstroke manages to trip the Flash.

edited 6th Jan '14 1:22:57 PM by supergod

I found this on Youtube:

You think that someone with the ability to control speed itself cannot get tripped that easily. I saw in one book that he got taken out by a gorilla although it was a super intelligent gorilla.

edited 8th Jan '14 8:27:06 PM by GAP

Wonder Woman vs Athena (Goddess Athena or Psycho Soldier Athena-would you care?), Comicbook/Blackhawk-Metal Slug Team up, Trouble Witches: Zatanna addition, Vandal Savage vs Fulgencio Batista, Plastic Man vs King of the Monsters, Legion Of Doom vs World Heroes...a DC/SNK crossover writes itself. The only one I cannot think of are any particular matchups for Green Lantern (NAM-1975?) and some of the vertigo characters (Dream, John Constantine) might be odd fits.

That was probably Grodd. Generally it's explained that Grodd manages to compete with the Flash because he's extremely quick with thought (he's a psychic) and can use his mind powers over long distances.

Well, it's entire possible for a human being to trip over something that isn't even moving. The absurd part is Deathstroke being fast enough to see where the flash is going and put his leg in the way before the Flash gets there.

That is fridge logic.

He actually used his kendo stick, but the same logic applies. To be fair, the Flash was just getting up from the floor (Deathstroke previously manages to hit him with a cop and then shoots him with something), but that scan is either used as "proof" of Deathstroke's superhuman reaction time or "proof" that the Flash could never be able to take on any of the higher ranking Avengers or whatever.

There's also an instance where Deathstroke stabbed Wally West after distracting him with C4. This is usually waved off as Flash not moving at top speed, but still pretty ridiculous. Then again that was from Identity Crisis, so...

It's best to just leave Deathstroke out of VS battles, pretty much.

I reckon Nintendo's player characters in general would be too strong for any of DC's regular heroes. Superman, the standard most of their super powered people are measured against, nearly died from a nuclear warhead in Dark Knight Returns, and judging by the fact the entire nation was not devastated by fallout, it could not have been more than 10 megatons (or else it would not have been risked in the first place)

By contrast, in Kirby Superstar, simply hitting A as fast as you can in Megaton punch will get you a score of 100, which means a strike of any effort from fighter Kirby would be ten times over Superman's limit. (the largest possible blast Superman could have taken is 25 megatons if Frank Miller knew nothing about bombs but a perfect megaton punch is 201 megatons, which would still smear Superman all over Pop Star and incidentally a perfect score does send a scar clear across the planet) And Kirby is not even the strongest player character they have. Donkey Kong has altered the moon's orbit, Popeye The Sailor Man would not be able to duplicate such a feat without spinach.

See, it can be pretty comical to try and figure out who would win between characters from stories that operate with completely different internal logic. To be fair to DC, I cannot think of any player characters who move like Flash. (according to cut scenes, Rosalina should be able to catch him once she gets her grand stars back, but she never displays such abilities as a player character) I also do not think they have any player characters as strong as the endless (but you know Dream in Dreamland would be awesome)