Does Not Illustrate (CROWNER): Superhero Packing Heat

This.

:| On a page named Superhero Packing Heat? With a big symbol emblazoned on his chest? To be quite honest, The Punisher is simply a better example because most examples are going to look like him, not Bucky. Most examples being talked about are a '90s Anti-Hero. I don't see much misuse on the page or in the wicks, so I can tell the image isn't actually confusing anyone.

This seems like a case of IP being extra picky because we like changing images.

edited 15th Apr '13 11:51:34 AM by helterskelter

Funny you raise the logo on his T-shirt. Lots of T-shirts have logos on them. Especially with respect to this particular motif - Even in Real Life, there are lots of people walking around on the street wearing T-shirts with a skull design on it. And I can assure you that most of them are neither superheroes nor wearing Punisher merchandise.

We are being picky because there is room for improvement, I feel. Actually, here's a quick question... what are we supposed to look for in a page pic? Is it supposed to be a generic/typical example of the trope or as close a distillation of the trope in action as possible? If it's the latter, the Bucky pic works much better than the current Punisher one as it portrays both, the "superhero" and "firearms", aspects of the trope more clearly.

edited 15th Apr '13 12:24:46 PM by peasant

My main issue with Bucky is that during his time as Bucky, guns weren't his primary weapons either (As required by the definition). He spent more time punching people. As the Winter Soldier or Captain America though...

Part of why I suggested Spawn. Even despite his huge array of powers, Guns are almost always his first recourse.

Fair assessment. I admit that I'm not particularly familiar with the Captain America comics of that era. If that's the case, so be it. I was just led by how frequently guns do show up in his hands on Google image searches, and how his regular use of guns seem to be define him as an individual and serve as a constant going from identity to identity.

With respect to Spawn, I agree that he definitely communicates the "comic book superhero" aspect more clearly than the Punisher pic, which just shows a guy in a T-shirt shooting guns.

As an aside, what about using Deadpool? For instance this pic◊, or just for fun, this pic◊ (cover of Amazing Spider-Man #611)?

edited 15th Apr '13 12:41:54 PM by peasant

Works too. As does Cable◊ or Cable AND Deadpool◊ 2◊.

edited 15th Apr '13 12:46:54 PM by CobraPrime

Any picture with Deadpool has my vote. :) I like Deadpool and Spider-man best of those suggested, for the contrast.

I like Deadpool for this trope, the mask and all that sells super-whatever better than Punisher's outfit, which is basically just a t-shirt.

I like Spawn if only coz there's less picture of him than Deadpool on the wiki. And the wiki could use more images that aren't Marvel or DC.

I honestly prefer the Spawn pic to anything else that's been posted, including mine.

I vote for Captain America for a very simple reason. The Punisher pic is a good pic and it perfectly illustrates the trope. The Captain America pic is a better pic. All wankery about what is or isn't a super hero or whether or not The Punisher could be seen as a hero or not, the simple reason that Cap is a better pic is all I need.

But Captain America is not an example of this trope.

You're saying that his example as written on the page makes things up?

The issue here is that some people misunderstood what superhero means. They thought that meant this character wasn't an example. By making him the page image, I think the use of this trope actually becomes clearer. Since, as the page image, characters like The Punisher do count, heroic or non-heroic. Approximately 0% of people are going to be confused on whether he's a thug because the name of the trope is Superhero Packing Heat. No one is going to come to this page and think he must be some mook.

This thread exists because of how notoriously picky IP is about images. Not because it's a bad or misleading image. But because IP likes changing images and will look for reasons to disqualify where it can.

Actually, yes, kind of. It's simply listing characters that used a gun at some point and are a superhero. This is actually something the image could be improved upon, but I can't think of a way for an image to emphasize the fact guns are his thing. Cap only occasionally used guns, and those were usually on covers rather than in the comics themselves. Nowadays, him picking up a gun is a big deal. I couldn't tell you about what Bucky does nowadays.

Still, that said, The Punisher is a visually better example because it doesn't juxtapose classic, stand-up, do-gooding heroism and the use of guns. If there's any misuse on the page, it relates to the fact people aren't reading #2 (quelle surprise), and I'd like to solve that, but I think an image of Cap wouldn't help.

edited 15th Apr '13 9:12:35 PM by helterskelter

So he doesn't use guns in his previous incarnation, and he doesn't pick up guns now and then in The Avengers?

Also, don't exaggerate so much, and don't make percentages up. Whether or not the title makes things clear, some people are still going to be confused.

edited 15th Apr '13 9:24:35 PM by AnotherDuck

My understanding is that Captain America has no special qualms about using guns if he thinks he needs to, but doesn't make an habit of it outside of war conditions.

And, frankly, I wouldn't recognise the current picture as a superhero were it not for the argument in this thread.

edited 15th Apr '13 9:27:23 PM by Noaqiyeum

Not enough to count for this trope. And the movie version is irrelevant anyway, since we're talking about the comic book version. Not that the comic book version should count. He's only seen with a gun once or twice that I recall. The rest is the shield and punching. Don't quote me on that.

And as far as the statistic goes, no. I will "exaggerate". The number of people that would actually believe that a trope called Superhero Packing Heat could possibly be about a no-name thug or mook is so minuscule it's incredibly unimportant.

Here's what isn't an exaggeration: almost all of the misuse comes from people ignoring the second requirement of trope, and not listing random people using guns. This is what you need to ask yourself: will the image actually cause people to list random, non-superhero characters? Do you think that's actually a possibility, rather than getting very picky and projecting that pickiness as actual concern, something IP loves doing?

That's not the trope. The trope is when a superhero uses guns as a big part of his array of weapons. Not just "he might use a gun or wouldn't mind given the choice" (which is actually not the case, btw, Cap has had a number of issues where he angsts over guns).

edited 15th Apr '13 9:58:04 PM by helterskelter

I think the Captain America image will be a little worse to correct editors who add superheroes using guns only on occasion, and the The Punisher image will be worse against people who add random people who use guns as a standard. Thus I prefer a different image, like Spawn, which has neither weakness.

Now, I'm not familiar with Captain America, but if he did use guns regularly during his war times, then he's an example. It doesn't matter what the general perception of him is, or how long that period was. If it was once one of his main "powers", it counts. The example says as much. If that's not true, the example is making stuff up, which is what I asked about.

As far as misinterpreting things go, I think you're just plainly wrong. People have trouble with a page two boxes labeled "Username" and "Password", one button, and the only text other than that is an instruction that amounts to "use your account for the time management system to log in". Most of the users asked why they couldn't log in, because they failed to read that instruction. The moment you believe it's impossible to misinterpret something is the moment you stop considering that other people may not look at things like you do. To not count those people, even if they're very few, is about the same as me saying that your opinion doesn't count, because you're just one of many, many editors on the wiki. Might as well ignore it because it's so minuscule it's incredibly unimportant.

edited 15th Apr '13 11:02:54 PM by AnotherDuck

I'm not sure why you're behaving as if I waffled on the Cap issue. I said explicitly: "Cap only occasionally used guns, and those were usually on covers rather than in the comics themselves. Nowadays, him picking up a gun is a big deal. I couldn't tell you about what Bucky does nowadays." The example is wrong, but the write-up is not factually incorrect, as it doesn't claim it was a big thing for him, just that he did use them, however infrequently.

Are you asking for a wick check on the page about the matter of random-mook vs occasionally-uses-guns? That seems entirely unnecessary and lengthy, but more to the point, if you glance over the page, you'll note that the misuse is almost entirely on the latter. I only see three potential misuses, but only because I'm unfamiliar with the examples: the anime ones.

You're to argue what you think will happen. I'm arguing about what has happened (with no small amount of simple logic). Simply put, if the name isn't enough to stop people from adding non-superheroes, than the image certainly isn't going to stop anyone. I can settle with the Spawn one, but I protest because this is yet another case of needless IP shuffling and pickiness.

edited 16th Apr '13 12:20:52 AM by helterskelter

I'm not sure why you're behaving as if I was behaving as if you waffled on the Cap issue.

If I was asking for a wick check, I would ask for a wick check.

And I regularly do participate in these forums, but I'm one of the most consistent stopping blocks here...

edited 16th Apr '13 5:57:05 AM by AnotherDuck

So, am I right in thinking that you feel it's correct to settle and stick with a current pic so long as it's "good enough" even though others feel there is room for improvement?

As an aside, I find it amusing that, as someone who doesn't regularly participate in the IP forum (I mostly glance at active thread titles, and then usually then mark everything read), I'm supposedly part of some IP culture or something.

That said, while some of the suggestions since my last comment have looked good to me, I think that if all of the suggestions were put up for a vote, I'd go with the Spawn pic mentioned by Cobra Prime in post 13 (though I do sympathize with the Deadpool preference mentioned by Noaqiyeum in post 32 ).

edited 16th Apr '13 5:38:21 AM by Nohbody

Seriously, I think it's past time we stop quarreling about this and just vote.

Second the vote to vote.

As the OP, I suppose it's up to me to set up the poll, but I don't know how to do crowners... and given the devisiveness, perhaps a single proposition crowner as to whether it actually needs replacing or not in the first place might not be a bad idea.