O' Allah, save EgyptSo do we cut it and send it back to YKTTW for refinement?
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
Two Christmas wormsNo, that's not what is being proposed here. And never recycle something from TRS to YKTTW. Also, Noa, I still don't have any difference between this page and the other.
the it-thingyBased on Mr Nobody's description, I'm assuming that this was intended to be for a recurrent trait of alien species for whom devouring the mate is a natural part of the life cycle (leading to possibly Blue and Orange Morality), whereas Black Widow is for humans who have ulterior motives for the same behaviour.
No, the other one.The description is short and not very good, and the examples don't explain much either. I think it needs a whole lot of clarifying in what makes the differences between the two tropes notable in terms of storytelling. I just don't see that here. Edited. Not sure what I actually wrote there...
edited 10th Feb '13 11:29:32 AM by AnotherDuck
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PiffyThat's because you're conflating the literal spiders and the idiomatic women. Human "black widows", which is what the Black Widow trope is about, have human motivations for killing their husband that only superficially resemble the behaviour of the actual animals who do this. The actual animals that do this kill their mates for decidedly inhuman reasons. One is a trope about a certain kind of serial killer. One is a trope about the actual behaviour of bugs that is sometimes invoked for species that are not bugs.
edited 6th Apr '13 10:51:56 AM by Pig_catapult
Piffy"Black Widow" has a specific idiomatic meaning outside the wiki, which is separate from the actual behavior of some arthropods.
This seems only to be only mildly related to Black Widow. A Black Widow kills their mate for financial gain. Conceive and Kill is killing your mate as part of the reproductive process or, at most, because the spouse will interfere with whatever plans you have for the child.
the it-thingyMy thoughts exactly.
Two Christmas wormsArha, how do you read "Usually" as "Always"? Or am I just getting sleepy?
I assume you mean the line 'usually but not always for monetary gain.' Personally, I read that as meaning there's always some sort of gain involved like political power, money, assets or any number of things. Reproduction doesn't come into it, only the fact that the partner dies and the woman gets their stuff. Actual biology doesn't really touch on the subject. Conceive and Kill, on the other hand, is about reproducing and then killing the father. This might be part of the life cycle or something. Either way, the reason is different, thus I feel it's a different trope.
PiffyI'd like to reiterate that the only two things the literal arthropods and idiomatic women really have in common are the name and a dead husband or three. Regardless of the precise motive of the idiomatic woman, her motive will always be a human one, and her victim's death may or may not take place during or very soon after sex. Regardless of the precise motive of the literal arthropod, her motive will always be a necessarily inhuman one, and her victim's death will take place during or very soon after sex. (edit: She also usually eats the male, which is known as "sexual cannibalism" according to The Other Wiki) The female praying mantis, for example, does not like having human voyeurs, and the male praying mantis head turns out to be a great comfort food to deal with that stress.
edited 28th May '13 4:10:27 PM by Pig_catapult
If I understand correctly, almost everybody agrees to merge the pages (so do I) and one or two people object. Do we need a crowner for this or can a mod just call it based on the discussion?
Special trousers. Very heroic.
Two Christmas wormsCrowner, perhaps? The "No" arguments are reasonable.
Two Christmas wormsVotes bump! Currently, the merge is at 3-7 in the red.
Hm, we probably should have used a page action crowner for that so that people can make alternative suggestions. Oh well.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
I say merge. I don't think we need 2 tropes about killing husbands. I would just broaden BW to include all instances of killing a mate for gain. Trying to split it up just seems silly and prone to misuse.
Against. I'd rather we emphasize the differences in the tropes.
Two Christmas wormsThumbed it down, but we'll need a tangible distinction between the two so that we can adjust the description of both.
I would make the distinction that a Black Widow marries and kills for some kind of power. Money, political power, position, to conceive an heir and rule indirectly, whatever. It all comes to the same thing: A human motive based in greed or lust for power. Conceive and Kill, however, would be more of an alien creature life cycle thing. It's not done for any sort of material gain but simply because that's how the species works.
edited 13th Jun '13 11:51:07 AM by Arha
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