Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

No, it's a kid's movie. I don't think anyone would argue that. It's just sorta weakly composed and weakly written. That's a contributor to why it didn't do as well as say Frozen which was still slightly problematic, but was overall, seen as more progressive in part because it was better written and the conflict was a little more interesting.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Eh. I liked them both.

But then again, maybe I am not the best judge for what movie is good or not. I did not hate Wild Wild West, Dark Shadows, or The Lone Ranger as the public audience seems to have a scathing opinion of.

All of my opinions are basically my thoughts on their handling of the gender issues there, though, not how well they did in box office.

edited 23rd Oct '14 1:05:05 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Honestly, I think both of them suffered from opposing problems from a writing standpoint - Brave artificially dragged out the main plot in order for everything to reach a climax at once, whereas Frozen just handwaved away anything that still needed fixing after the emotional conflict had been resolved.

...wait, that's a derail. Backing up...

I'm not sure exactly how Frozen is better with regard to the subject of arranged marriages, considering there very nearly is one during the film itself, sponsored by universally-acclaimed Love Experts who ultimately are implied to be overenthusiastic but right. I'm happy to overlook it for having only a supporting part of the story, but that only makes it a flaw that is out of focus.

On the other hand, Brave... I'm not quite sure how to structure this. I saw a lot of the things that have already been mentioned as stronger aspects of the film. Elinor is a protagonist's mother who is neither dead nor evil (nor foolish), but a well-intentioned antagonist - not even an extremist - whose desire for what is best for her family is genuine. She loses her temper and does things she immediately regrets, and is able to realise when she makes mistakes and tries to make up for them. (She is a particularly sympathetic character to parents who do meddle in guiding their daughters' romantic concerns; to show that this is regrettably still applicable to modern western society, and that Elinor's character resonates specially with them, I cite Mother of Mine as Exhibit A.)

...actually, I just realised that Brave and Frozen are basically the same story. The major difference is only whether it's the princess or the queen who opposes the idea of the princess' abrupt marriage and produces a curse she can't dispel until she restores their broken relationship.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

Something that I have been wondering for a while.

Why, whenever personifications of the Seven Capital Sins appear in a story, "Lust" is always represented by a female?

Seriously,FMA, The Keys To The Kingdom, Asura's Wrath...

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!

I remember a 'seven deadly sins' art series on deviantART depicted lust simply with the newspaper clippings about a serial rapist.

hashtagsarestupid

... Huh. I'm guilty of that too, when I was writing Diablo2 fanfics a decade ago. I also made Envy female, while all the rest were male.

I'm going to say it's because of typical gender politics - it's a sin for women to enjoy sex, but not a sin for men. Jealousy/Envy is also typically a sin levied more against women than men, while the rest get assigned mostly to men because they're the ones in charge, and especially pride, anger, and greed, are traits that powerful men usually have in some degree.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Because, unless framed as a type of conquest, men are typically uninterested in the sexuality of other men.

Jezebel, Lilith, Tiamat, men have been blaming women for their lusts for as long as there have been women to blame.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

In the language of the Male Gaze, sex = woman. Ask men to associate a male character with Lust and you're basically calling them gay.

Stuff what I do.

I would say the representation of sin as a female is also a bit of Sex Is Evil, and I Am Horny.

My favorite representation of such (which is Desire of the Endless) was absolutely androgynous.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Lust from the webcomic Webcomic.Jack is male and very creepy. He was a rapist in life and a very good example of male lust turned evil, especially as it vilifies a rapist and not the target of his desires. He's the evil one for forcing his desires on others. His victims are portrayed sympathetically.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

But that's only furthering the initial point.

That Male Lust is characterized by what he does TO other people. Female Lust is typically characterized by what other people feel about her.

One exception to the latter I can think of is when Power Girl was once possessed by the spirit of Lust and basically molested other heroes.

edited 24th Oct '14 7:15:09 AM by KingZeal

This discussion does remind me of Dracula, but as Zeal noted, sexually voracious males in fiction such as Dracula tend to be governors of their inclinations, rather than recipients of such. It seems to vary with female characters, but I'm too busy to think of examples right now.

Well, more to the point, a female lust tends to truly embody the concept. Creators not only grant her the power of Lust, or incorporate Lust into her story, but she embodies it in character as well, such as being sexually enticing to the audience.

Male Lust characters may or may not do the same. It's quite common to see a supernatural Chick Magnet coupled with an Unlucky Everydude or Kavorka Man. But it's almost required for a female character.

This is making me wonder how a genderflipped Tomie would play out... which in turn reminds me of another example of a seductive male villain - possessed Mytho, in Princess Tutu. Which, interestingly, plays in neatly with the above observations - with a basically-female demographic, he isn't expected to threaten any boy's sexuality, and the heroine is active so it's more acceptable for him to be passively alluring as well.

I think an ideal embodiment of a sin would both inspire it in others and be consumed by it themself... Envy was presented that way in FMA, but not really any of the others...

Could you explain what you mean in your last paragraph, please?

edited 24th Oct '14 9:29:00 AM by Noaqiyeum

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

Dunno: Lust gave in to her battle-lust and played with a certain individual when she should have just ended it and... well, that didn't go well, did it?

Gluttony... poor lambkin: he got his hungry on and reminded Pride of his existence at just the wrong moment.

Pride's outright refusal to take second-best ended up a problem for him.

Wrath... well, how he died was ultimately his own fault: each domino had been set in place by acts he'd committed in battle over the years.

Sloth: inverted it. It was by getting busy he wound up dead. However, the guy died with a smile because now no more work, ever: Pride can't make me.

Greed: the only one who, although he embodied his domain, managed to subvert it, too.

edited 24th Oct '14 9:37:08 AM by Euodiachloris

I suppose there are arguments to be made for Lust and Gluttony, but Lust doesn't usually succumb to bloodlust, and Gluttony doesn't usually inspire others to consume. And, I suppose, you could say that Pride inspires false confidence in others because of his form. But I don't remember Sloth causing despair, Wrath provoking rage, or Greed inciting desire.

Envy is pretty consistently both "I am better than you at everything" and "I hate you all (because you all have something I secretly want)", and Lust stands out as being principally a provocateur rather than experiencing it herself.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

All depends on your story it seems.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Using the example of, say, classic Dracula, he wasn't portrayed as a handsome, attractive lady-killer. His physical appearance was rather off-putting and his magnetism was completely in dark power. Likewise, when you see a male-centric Harem Genre story, the main character is often unremarkable or sometimes even conventionally unattractive.

Gary Oldman...

He did the classic, original Dracula strict by the story...

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Is that an agreement or disagreement? I'm guessing "agreement" but...

Giving a visual example of what you're talking about, agreement.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Ah, thanks.

Ah, I understand now. Thank you. :) Yes, that is so.

(I wasn't sure what you meant by those two character types being 'coupled' - it sounded like you meant as character roles in the same story.)

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

Also lust is usually the only sin that has its sin done unto itself. Gluttony is not the most delicious thing you've ever seen, for example, but usually a fat man who is constantly eating. Even though envy is also usually a woman, she also does the more traditional "I am an envious person" as opposed to "be envious of me"

edited 24th Oct '14 11:23:16 AM by MrAHR

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