Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

Ezra Scarlet is perhaps the only female shone character I can call overpowered. Don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

Speaking of Greek myth, I was wondering how people here felt about the Wonder Woman comic making the Amazons more sympathetic while Heracles is outright villainous.

Look at any objective list of things Heracles has done and tell me you wouldn't think he was a villain. The dude is poster boy for Testosterone Poisoning. Gaston wishes he were herakles.

Creators bend myths to the advantage of their protagonists all the time, for better or worse. The local Death god being re-imagined as an Evil god is probably the most common.

Although as points out, when it comes to stories that old, there's often a huge amount of Values Dissonance. For that reason, I find it's less often that the villain has been turned evil, and more that the heroes have been cleaned up according to more modern values, which by default makes the villain more evil by comparison. It's very common to find stories where the protagonist is the only one (or one of few) who show those modern values, even if the world doesn't have them at all at that time period.

no one wishes he were Herakles like Gaston

Would be interesting if Herakles is a villain in the DCEU especially if he crosses paths with Dwayne Johnson's Black Adam.

Even guy like george martin fall into that tick, as Ned stark who let Arya pratice sword, dosent mind is wife to have diferent religion and treat Jon nicely can atest, so the Stark are the "modern value protagonist" in a way.

I guess is one of those necesary weasels in fantasy since otherwise it would be much hard to watch that today.

Ned isn't the only person in Westeros with those qualities. I mean, I don't know if anyone else has all three of those qualities simultaneously, but they are kind of specific.

Sure, but the fact he have all three is what make him the protagonist of the first book(because he pretty much is) he feel closer to a modern viewer than everyone else, the only moment this dosent happen is at first when he kill the run away night guard.

And then Martin kill him off, precisely because of his honor. So Stark is more like a deconstruction of those protagonists than play it straight.

To reroute the conversation back to Greek myth, Euripides is one of the only Greek authors who actually wrote about female tragic heroes with a diverse range of personality. Ranging from heroic figures (Alcestis, Iphigenia in both of her plays), tragic (Medea, The Trojan Women, Hecuba), to women who just can't keep it in their pants (Helen). Even his female supporting characters are so diverse and interesting (Phaedra in Hippolytus, the female followers and the female royals of Thebes in Bacchae).

edited 24th Feb '17 8:40:40 AM by shatterstar

Yes and no, sure it happen because is grimdark but because he need to create the war of the five kings, in a second readin is fate is almost painfully telegraph from the start and it show but them Martin mislead everyone by farming is role as detective story.

Also, it dosent really change the point that Ned(and by extention, House stark) are very moder-nish protagonist which is pretty given in fantasy to have someone to root for.

Ned's strict adherence to honor isn't exactly a modern value. And about the religion thing: there doesn't appear to be any serious problems between worshippers of the Seven and worshippers of the Old Gods; also, interreligious marriages are probably quite rare, since religion is pretty much a function of geography and only nobles are likely to both travel far and marry.

There arent problems with these two religions anymore. Andals and First Men used to bash in each other's heads for a long time until the latter got driven into the North where the Andals couldn't dislodge them - so at some point they probably gave up trying to convert them.

And when the Seven Kingdoms were united, their kings were probably more interested in keeping it all together than having to deal with the potential instability caused by trying to forcibly convert the North.

There are examples of believers of the Seven living in the North and vice-versa - I think it's actually any other religion that's being frowned upon.

edited 24th Feb '17 8:52:02 AM by DrunkenNordmann

Actually, I think Oberyn Martell has all those qualities. Or, well, he had.

Now that I think of it: You can actually divide characters in A Song Of Ice And Fire into "good guys" and "bad guys" to some degree based on how they're at parenting.

Ned Stark is good, Tywin Lannister is bad, Randyll Tarly is also bad, Roose Bolton... tries? But he's still bad. That even works with Cersei - she loves her children, but is a terrible parent.

Selwyn Tarth seems also good.

edited 24th Feb '17 9:45:20 AM by DrunkenNordmann

Having honor is one thing but Ned dosent have any issue with jon or let Arya to indulge in swordfighting as he know she dosent get along well with "proper lady stuff", showing he can move away instead of "honor!" like other chararters.

Yeah but you never feel those clash of religion, in fact they dont play much of a roll until later which feel kinda weird.

Oberyn is hard to said since is kinda of one scene wonder: he show up, he wreck stuff from everyone invold and that it.

edited 24th Feb '17 9:47:17 AM by unknowing

Bringing this back on topic, question on your opinions on this: Double Standard: Lust and Perversion. Men who are characterized as lustful or perverted are seen rather badly by people, both in-universe and out, whereas women will usually get a pass and excused with things like "oh she's just expressing her sexuality" or something. Especially a problem in anime.

A good example of what really grind my gears is the manga Suki × Suki, which is basically the story of the Ring of Gyges set in a Japanese high school and found by a girl instead. She does all sorts of creepy, full-blown stalker stuff while invisible, like ogle at the boy she likes, spy on him to watch him change, follow him home and try to get into the bath with him. And yet the story treats her as sympathetic because "oh she can't express her feelings normally" and even the boy (who can see her when invisible and just chooses to try and ignore it) for some reason becomes sympathetic to her, and heck, even the readers are sympathetic. One comment I've read even blatantly highlighted the hypocrisy by saying that if it was a boy doing all this, it would be downright disgusting, but since it's a cute girl it's just endearing. What.

edited 24th Feb '17 9:48:30 AM by danime91

I have seen that, overall it seen the indication that a women can express feeling of lust openly as long it dosent do anything, but also I think it can cross with other double standar: first is cute when a hot women do it becaue...well, she is hot, is not surprising that for many, the diference between "charming casanova" and "creepy dude" reside if the guy is handsome or not(compare the guy in How I met your women with Howard from Big bang theory, one is hilarious perver the other is the pathetic one, guess guy)

Not really. Femme Fatale exists. Black Widow exists. Sexualized female villains have always been the norm, not the exception.

because they do something with that, expresing sexuality is one thing but acting on it is another and that is when many men draw the line(arbitrary? sure, but it is what it is)

But that double standar can cross a times in reality, like the use of sex toys: a women who us a dildo or something else is seen as kinky, adventours and doing something herself, while a men who have a sex toy is pretty much a creepy loser who cant get a life or a real women, like the whole "guy have sex toy ballon" which is comon in sitcom and some anime.

I've always seen that manga as her being a creep. The weird part about it is that he's actively helping her continue being that way. Or at least, actively trying to hide that she does, both from others and that he knows about it from her.

I find that if female characters are evil, they're more often sexualised, but they're not more often made evil when they're sexualised.

@unknowing: Still, you can't deny that he treated all his daughters - even the bastards - as Ned treated Jon and Arya. You don't need to see Oberyn to see how his daughters are doing. And I would guess Oberyn didn't care much about religion. Juuuuust a guess.

Sure, but Oberyn since to be irreverent o social norm most of the time, in part because he come from Dorn which is waaaaay more relax that some other kindoms, while Ned is from the north who dosent seen to be THAT diferent from the south.

in fact, Oberyn remind me of the whole "exotic mediterranian" who have more loose morals than "proper" Europeans.

I'm just saying in Westeros Ned's behaviour isn't completely alien. It might be unusual in the North, but I don't find it unbelievable of Ned.

Sure, but is rare enought so Ned having it make him stand apart, which again goes back to the point one is saying: he is more moderinsh because he is the protagonist and make him relatable to the reader, Oberyn is also a good chararter who is something of a hope spot to Tyrion and want to avange is sister, consider the system of foil, Oberyn is something of a half Ned-Half Jaime.

The Manderlys love each other and have soft spots for spirited women and girls. And, one half of the Karstark lot is pretty cool (don't ask about the other >_<). Also, most of House Mormont have a very hard, yet permissive, set of viewpoints...

And, the mountain clans of both the Vale and the North pretty much reward competence, regardless of who is showing it in what field.

edited 24th Feb '17 5:13:05 PM by Euodiachloris

Mildly off-topic, but I found Daenerys' crusade against slavery (though given a bit of nuance in the cases where the slaves had a better quality of life while enslaved) a pretty good example of "modern values protagonist". Not that she isn't presented with her flaws, mind you, but putting her as the Breaker of Chains against an army of literal puppy-eaters was a bit far.