The Scrappy Cleanup

So another round of base breakers to delete? Got it.

If even that, yes. I wanted to get some opinions about them, though, if anyone had a different view of the fandoms.

I'm unfamiliar with the fandom myself, but I know Final Fantasy XII's Vaan is also listed as an example on Americans Hate Tingle (and I can believe it, as from what little I know about the character he seems the type likely to run afoul of differing cultural preferences).

edited 29th May '15 7:38:54 PM by nrjxll

Okay, take two, this time on the individual FF game YMMV pages.

• FFI: The Black Belt isn't listed as any variation. He is on Game-Breaker, though, ironically enough.
• FFIV:
  • Edward is listed as Rescued from the Scrappy Heap as far as later games goes, but probably still qualifies for the original.
  • Tellah is only on Tier Induced Scrappy on that page, which is sort of the same reason as on the The Scrappy page, but there it also ties into the plot. Probably okay, though.
• FFVI:
  • Relm is listed under Ensemble Dark Horse. I don't quite think she qualifies for that, but it does put a rather significant doubt to her status as a scrappy.
  • The only actually listed character is that spoiled rich kid.
• FFVII: Claims that Cait Sith is an intentional one. I find that arguable, and from the opinions I've heard, he doesn't work as a Hate Sink as much as a character who just ruins the game.
• Crisis Core also lists Angeal and Dr. Hollander. I'm not familiar with them, but they seem to be Hate Sinks, as they're not liked In-Universe. Genesis, on the other hand, piles up just about every trope for commonly unlikeable characters.
• FFXII lists Ashe, who's fairly popular, and described as such in the example from the other page.

Angeal is a complicated character. He's liked well-enough in-universe, and it's not until he (and a lot of other characters) starts having a (justified) mental breakdown that the characters start not-liking him. He's never really outright hated either, he more gets a What the Hell, Hero? treatment after he dies by committing suicide by goading his student into killing him. Which is one of the events that lets the main character know that he's not being told everything.

Actually, in-universe most of the characters acknowledge that they don't know enough about what's going on to know if they should hate Angeal, Genesis, or Hollander enough to kill them, vs stopping them and bringing them in. Further complicating things is that Crisis Core has a similar plot to The Bourne Legacy, but it's told from the point of view of the company who's been playing god with people's lives and doesn't want that getting out; and the people who they are using to do that don't know what's going on until the situation implodes on them.

As for how the fandom views those characters... they kinda blame all three of them for being the source of a lot of retcons, most of which are seen as unneeded. None of them were in the original Final Fantasy VII so the characters get a lot of flack for that. Which to be honest is more trivia then an actual trope... so that perception colors everything about how the fandom thinks about them.

edited 31st May '15 1:43:51 PM by ObsidianFire

Why fans hate characters isn't actually important for qualifying for the trope (though it could mean another scrappy trope is a better fit), but it does provide context for how the trope applies. Those particular characters I'm not familiar with (though most of the rest of the Complication). If you think you can clean the examples up and making sure they're either on both pages or not at all, feel free.

Any other opinions?

Otherwise I'll start by removing Freya, Penelo, Ashe, and Relm. The latter also from Ensemble Dark Horse, since I don't think she fits either trope. Possibly Base Breaker, but probably not even that. After that some cleaning is required, which I decided to leave until after we've removed the non-examples.

Anyone here OK with me adding Jr. Troopa to the Scrappy list of Paper Mario? While playing Paper Mario for the first time, he was my most hated character, and apparently I'm not the only one. I've seen quite a few people say that they wish he was never in the game, especially for what he did in the epilogue (which I won't say here because spoilers).

Doesn't seem like a problem.

I'm not familiar with Akame ga Kill, but its entry mentions a group of loathsome villains. Surely they're characters we're supposed to hate?

It depends on what kind of heat they get. Do people hate them for being mean, or for ruining the story?

about that entry for Komamura's ancestor mentioned a page or two ago

Hatesink: Komamura's ancestor - there's nothing redeeming about him and he's very clearly written that way because he's lampshaded in-universe as an example of the Buddhist "sin" of ignorance.

should I go ahead and update the entry and put this anywhere like in the characters section or so? Or just wait for a better rewrite?

By the way, is there a limit on how long an entry should be?

The entry for John in YMMV.Master Chef looks like its several paragraphs long. Admittedly, I was the one who wrote that entry in the first place, but someone expanded on it and now it looks like a bloated Wall of Text.

edited 19th Jun '15 3:14:28 AM by Adept

There's no strict limit on entry length. However, if you wrote the original you're probably familiar enough with the example to at least try to reduce it a bit. If necessary, you can use paragraph breaks as well (double backslash at the end of on two consecutive rows). You don't really need a play-by-play account of stuff that happened.

As I said before, I'm not familiar with the characters there, but if it's someone portrayed as a Hate Sink, write him as such, if you haven't already.

@anoni: I was summarising why Komamura's ancestor wasn't a Scrappy, rather than suggesting a decent write-up for Hate Sink. If you want to do the honours and come up with a proper write-up, go for it.

edited 20th Jun '15 11:35:41 AM by Wyldchyld

Someone added Jr. Troopa to the Mario series. the reasons listed had very poor grammar and don't seem to be widely shared at all—most people I've seen like Jr. Troopa for his humor and persistence.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=TheScrappy.SuperMarioBros

@Wyldchyld

I'll try. Not very good at writing

He was discussed earlier up this very page.

Hey. I thought you guys might want to know that someone added Mickey and Jay from Total Drama Presents: The Ridonculous Race without bringing them up in the thread.

Also, what are your opinions about listing characters as Scrappies or Darkhorses for shows that haven't aired yet? I mean, I know that fan anticipation is a pretty big thing when you're waiting for a show to premiere, and some characters wind up with more preemptive fans than others. However, is it really fair to make a judgement based on something that hasn't even come out yet?

The Scrappy is about hate with no relation to why (what kind of hate is an important distinction in relation to Hate Sink, though).

Ensemble Dark Horse can probably fit as well, but then you have to take into account actual exposure in the pre-release material, rather than offical main character status. For instance the dog in Fallout 4. Whether it's a main character in the game is arguable (but probably not, which could make it qualify). It's still the main character of the trailer, and therefore doesn't qualify.

edited 24th Jun '15 4:38:48 PM by AnotherDuck

About that Hate Sink reedit for Komamura's great grandfather

here's what I thought of:

• He is despised by fans who like Komamura. In addition to laughing off Komamura's request to learn his clan's secret arts, he flat out admits he doesn't care what happens to Soul Society. Later, it's revealed that he knew that the Human Transformation Techinque would turn Komamura into an ordinary powerless wolf after it wears off. Not only is he not upset about it, he's thrilled at Komamura succumbing to his clans roots of revenge the prospect that his grandson's life is ruined and his Soul Reaper Days are over. There's nothing redeeming about him and he's very clearly written that way because he's lampshaded in-universe as an example of the Buddhist "sin" of ignorance, and only seemingly exists to kick Komamura out of the plot. This is all made worse by the fact that, since the only one who knows where he even is is now powerless to do anything about it, he's probably gonna get away with everything.

I talked to Wyldchyld for his input and he thought of this:

• The Werewolves are a clan of humanoids cursed with animal form because of their ignorant, vengeful hearts. He mocks Komamura's desire to get stronger and has no interest in helping to protect Soul Society. His only desire is to drag Komamura into the heart of the Werewolf curse. He teachers the Human Transformation Technique solely to trap Komamura in a spiral of vengeance and hate, ruining his grandson's life and Soul Reaper career by forever trapping him in the form of a wolf. He revels in his success, is lampshaded in-universe as being the essence of the Buddhist 'sin' of ignorance, hatred and vengeance, and the fandom hates him accordingly.

is there any other way to write it? Not very good at writing without rambling on.

First off: Again, I have no clue about the characters or series.

The first looks like a decent entry. The last sentence probably isn't necessary, since as a Hate Sink, Karma Houdini is one of the less relevant details, in particularly in light of the already long entry.

The second doesn't seem to touch a whole lot on the actual trope, and rambles more about tangental stuff. Or in terms closer to how I see it: It's hard to determine what trope it's about just from that.

As seen here there was some discussion on Olly from GOT. Personally, I think he qualifies and would like to readd him. There's debate on whether you're supposed to like him or not, but Word of God is that he and the mutineers are supposed to be at least somewhat sympathetic, and even if you're supposed to disagree with him, it doesn't change the fact his wangst is just annoying.

If people hate him because he's annoying and they want other characters to get his screen time, then he probably fits. If people hate him because they disagree with the things they're supposed to disagree with, he doesn't count. Assuming the first isn't also true.

I've been thinking of expanding the Scrappy page for Sonic the Hedgehog to list more Scrappies from non-game media such as Chris Thorndyke, especially considering there is one example from a comic series already on the page. Should I go through with this?

If that page is for the franchise as a whole, sure.

The Scrappy section there is a mess of faulty indentions, though. Each trope should be on its own. We don't group subtropes like that.