Does Not Illustrate: Stone Wall

The image here is actively misleading tropers into believing the trope requires slow movement speed. That's not true; it's about trading offense for defense. Speed doesn't factor into it; could be high, could be low, whatever. But we've had queries in Ask The Tropers / Lost And Found asking where to put examples with medium to high speed, and we've had multiple YKTTW drafts spring up to try and fill gaps that don't really exist.

If we're going to use an infographic, it should look like this:

Glass Cannon and Fragile Speedster are experiencing the same problem.

Completely agree. Part of the problem with how we were trying to repair Competitive Balance (you know about the thread already) was the images. An infographic would be much more fitting.

But, I do feel that all of these pages need to have an infographic, including Jack of All Stats and Lightning Bruiser for the sake of consistency.

The problem is that infographics suck. They're lazy, not visually interesting, and are overly literal, which is something Fast Eddie cited as a major problem with Image Picking. Please restore my faith in the creativity of this board and suggest something else.

Could also go back to the old image.

edited 29th Oct '12 9:22:03 PM by troacctid

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the trope and is actively misleading. And isn't even a good visual pun.

It has ATK 0, DEF 3000 spelled out on the bottom.

I think we're going about this wrong.

I think we should make this trope about +Def/-Atk/-Spd. That way, that gives us a more defined trope that is easier to picture.

We can make a new trope called Agile Wall or Rocket Wall or something to cover the ones with speed.

This isn't the place to be proposing that sort of thing. That would better go on the Competitive Balance thread we already have.

^^ Or maybe something like The Juggernaut.

Well, that's not what the trope is about; I can't imagine we'd want to change the trope definition to fit a misleading image.

I'm going to go ahead and make a motion to pull the image from all three of Stone Wall, Glass Cannon, and Fragile Speedster, on the grounds that an actively misleading image is worse than no image at all.

edited 10th Nov '12 4:35:25 PM by troacctid

Could Glass Cannon and Stone Wall be replaced with appropriate MTG cards?

edited 10th Nov '12 4:50:23 PM by Willbyr

Like this and this?

You'd get something like this and this, but power and toughness are way down in the corner and aren't clearly marked as anything but numbers. Yu Gi Oh probably works better because 1. they clearly label ATK and DEF and 2. they have a bigger spread of numbers.

edited 10th Nov '12 5:03:30 PM by troacctid

I see your point; something other than Labyrinth Wall, then...any suggestions? I'm completely unfamiliar with Yu Gi Oh.

"something other than Labyrinth Wall"

... :(

Eh, I don't see why the TCG Labyrinth Wall doesn't work. Visual Pun aside, it says ATK/DEF right there, unlike the MTG cards where I can't tell the stats apart.

And we could use something like Blazing Inpachi for Glass Cannon.

Of course, one issue with using Yugioh is that, while in Magic, Power represents your ability to cause damage, and Toughness represents how hard a hit you can take, the Attack/Defense values in Yugioh are more like situational attack values. The only difference between Attack and Defense is that you can't destroy stuff with your defense score, and you don't take damage if something in Defense mode is destroyed in battle.

...usually, anyway.

What I mean is that a monster wih 3000 ATK and 0 DEF could still survive hits from a monster with 2500 ATK, if the former was in attack posiion at the time. Meanwhile, a monster with 0 ATK and 3000 DEF couldn't take even a single hit from anything if it were in Attack position.

Meanwhile, in Magic, a monster with 8 Power and 1 toughness could be killed by a monster with 1 power and 1 toughness (well, it'd be mutual suicide, but still), and a monster with 1 power and 8 toughness would easily survive a clash with the same opponent.

...I know I'm the one who put up Labyrinth Wall (a Yugioh card) back in the day, but this just occurred to me. Is this a legiimate problem, or am I overthinking it?

Uh... what?

Seriously, I read that over and over and have no idea what you're talking about.

I know nothing about Yu-Gi-Oh, but isn't 0 Atk/3000 Def a perfect definition of Stone Wall?

Assuming Yu-Gi-Oh ATK/DEF works like Magic The Gathering is something only a Magic player would do, and that (incorrect) assumption would send the correct message. The details of Yu-Gi-Oh mechanics seems to support this idea anyway, but for a different reason. So yeah, overthinking it, probably.

A legitimate worry might be about what a reader who is unfamiliar with both might think, but as far as I can tell it is fine. Stats being in the lower-right corner of a CCG card is a pretty well-known convention (I think?), and ATK/DEF are labeled.

edited 11th Nov '12 4:55:38 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Clock is set.

Maybe Wall of Granite◊ and an actual glass cannon?

Out of context (and out of card border), Wall of Granite looks more like part of the scenery than a creature being used to defend.

Well, the motion effects make it look like a wall some wizard summoned to block a bunch of sodiers, but still.

The wall of granite might work. That's a very big might.

Clock's up; locking for inactivity/lack of consensus. No further action is to be taken based on this thread.