Akame ga Kiru

All too true.

Also, here's another interesting perspective on Esdese I found on someone's Wordpress blog. I think this sums things up pretty well as far as making a case for her goes.

edited 1st Sep '14 2:19:41 PM by KSPAM

My problem is that, when it started getting more "in your face" about it, I had to refrain from rolling my eyes more than once.

It's gotten very heavy-handed in its execution as Dark Shounen. I like moral ambiguity in stuff like this. One Piece does it well with the pirate-marine dichotomy.

edited 1st Sep '14 2:25:28 PM by Serocco

A good example of this is early in the manga when we're first introduced to the Prime Minister executing a dude. Before he orders him to be taken away, he tells him he'll take care of his wife, not-so-subtly implying he's going to make her/blackmail her into being his Sex Slave against her will. It was nasty and disgusting, sure, but it didn't feel too out of place for the story to imply something like that, especially since the Prime Minister was supposed to be the center of all this evil in the Empire.

Cut to the Wild Hunt raping the innocent wife and daughter of a fan-favorite character to death on top of his grave, and it starts feeling less like you're trying to be mature about it and more like you're trying to make an exploitation film whose only purpose is to disgust the viewer as much as is possible. Hentai has more respect for its audience than Ag K has had lately.

It's tryhardy and childish, and repulsing in a way that reflects badly on the author, not the characters.

edited 1st Sep '14 2:27:58 PM by KSPAM

First off: don't compare Hentai to Akame Ga Kiru. That's underhanded.

I've gotten to a point where I'm so paranoid that, even all of the people killed by Esdeath and Night Raid makes me think "Hmmm, did they Kick the Dog as well?" It's made me that fucking cynical, which is something I hate having.

Well, if you believe it, I don't quite hate Prime Minister Honest as much. That said, I don't quite care if he dies, and I'd rather he did. He's basically a Generic Doomsday Villain.

Now, with Esdeath, because I've seen her good side, I want her to lose, for sure, and probably via No-Holds-Barred Beatdown (because anything less than overkill will not defeat her, plus she probably would hate it if you held back anyway). Nevertheless, I don't want her to die, until probably at the very end of the series.

I think there's a ton of intrigue surrounding "What happens if Esdeath loses?" I really wanna see what happens, because it could offer character development (for whoever's involved), and it continues the story.

edited 1st Sep '14 2:30:11 PM by Serocco

Aaaand shit like that is probably the reason Wild Hunt exists. It was author intention for readers to never forget that Esdese is evil, the cute moments were probably meant to be unsettling than anything. But of course he underestimated the length some people will go to excuse any character they find cute. So he probably threw his hat and decided to go for full throttle, absolutely no sympathetic qualities, super over the top evil villains.

... except that makes absolutely no goddamn sense because the Wild Hunt has nothing to do with Esdese. Do you even think about these things before you type them?

And no, I'm pretty sure they were intended to be cute. Rei Ayanami is a good example of a failed attempt at Uncanny Valley being adopted as Moe by the fandom. This... it's pretty goddamn hard to interpret it as anything but intentional, considering the lengths he went to earlier in the manga to humanize Esdese.

Unsettling? Not really. Seryu is unsettling. Esdeath is hilarious, honestly.

Now, onto meta shit. Some of her defenders get outta hand, juuust as some of her opponents also get outta hand.

Esdeath, from the beginning, was meant to be Dark Gray. Meant to show the absurd extremes of a warmonger while being fairly pleasant outside of combat (particularly to people who she sees as strong). She was meant to be a controversial, complicated character.

Wild Hunt, on their own, isn't something I have a problem with. When Stylish and Seryu died, AGK needed some more unambiguous villains that aren't Honest (okay, that was an unintentional pun). I get that.

What I don't get is the strong feeling that AGK is turning into Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy.

edited 1st Sep '14 3:03:30 PM by Serocco

Well, by definition, DIAA is subjective, so what turns some people off might not hold true for you. I, personally, am finding it very hard to care about what happens in this manga anymore because all the bad guys are such irredeemable bastards and anyone trying to do some good or even anyone who's just a pleasant person despite being evil (like the remaining Jeagers) seems to either die or disappear from the story so that we can have more scenes that look like they were ripped half from a snuff film and half from bad, vomit-inducing hentai.

Well, I can say that it appears Lubbock killed Syura, sooo....

edited 1st Sep '14 3:07:48 PM by Serocco

A step in the right direction, at least

Snuff film torture aside, Lubbock kept his loyalty to Night Raid, fooled Syura into thinking he was broken, attempted to escape on his own, and garroted one of the most horrendous assholes in this series in Syura, possibly killing him for good.

That was well-done Dark Shounen. For what was once a joke character, Lubbock earned my respect. This dude deserves to be with the woman he loves.

Plus, Syura's Humiliation Conga was awesome. Esdeath managing to get Wild Hunt disbanded by proving that they're Stupid Evil and too extreme even for her was great too.

edited 1st Sep '14 3:16:10 PM by Serocco

Yeah, because if he just cranked up Esdese evilness, her fans would cry about character derailment.

Yeah, you are probably right, the author obviously must had an ambition to create the first ever moe character who is also a mass-murdering sadist. I mean, who could have find going between gleefuly torturin people and writing about your crush in the diary the least bit unsettling? That's just sill.

Funny, coming from someone who has to yet make a valid point.

I have no problem admitting that she is a pleasant person if you are on her good side. I really oppose the idea that this in any way detracts from her evilness and all the weight of all the crimes she committed.

Oh, I'm not saying she doesn't deserve karma. I like her as a person. I respect her good points. Hell, I'd even say I admire that she even has a good side, just as it is with Night Raid and some of the other Jaegers.

I respect her as a person and I find her fascinating as a character. What I'm not saying is that she doesn't deserve to lose. No way. I don't want her to die, though, at least not unless it's at the very end of the series.

Like I said, a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown and/or a Humiliation Conga is something I would prefer. Hell, Esdeath herself wouldn't have it any other way. She doesn't want mercy done to herself either.

edited 1st Sep '14 3:22:20 PM by Serocco

It might not come out in this discussion, but I too like Esdese. She's a good character and a interesting villain. I just don't think she's a good person. Like at all.

Moe-moe murder waifu? It's been done before

And the fact that you admit it'd be character derailment really just validates my point about Esdese being nowhere near as evil Wild Hunt or the rest of the Empire. No one ever said she wasn't evil and that she doesn't deserve to answer in some way for her crimes, but at the same time, it's like saying a spartan is evil, or an alligator is evil. It doesn't work the same way it does for humans because they grew up in a context completely removed from the rest of civilized society.

Their definition of right and wrong extends to what they were taught, and you don't teach an alligator that it shouldn't kill anything it needs to in order to survive, defend its territory, or enforce its alpha status. Saying an animal should be held responsible for the people it's killed is just stupid because the animal has no idea that that's wrong. You can tell them that's it wrong, and they might even understand it, but they can't incorporate it into the way they look at the world.

Ergo, none of what she's done makes her a good person, but it's not really her fault that she's like that to begin with.

edited 1st Sep '14 3:24:15 PM by KSPAM

Naah, I'd say Esdeath is a good person... who does horrible things. I mean, I don't think she's simply one or the other. She's both.

One particularly poignant scene was when she said Liver, Nyau, and Daidara were weak for losing to Incursio. Yet, she still gave them proper burials and declared her desire to avenge them.

For a Social Darwinist like her, that's pretty significant, how even though she does not pity the weak, she still cares for her men. It's that nuance that makes her probably the best character in this series.

edited 1st Sep '14 3:29:56 PM by Serocco

That's kinda what I was trying to say, but it got lost in the metaphors >.>

It's not mutually exclusive at all, is the point.

I don't even think we're disagreeing all that much.

Personally, I'd rather switch the topic to something else. I don't want another escalation.

And it always escalates from here on out, doesn't it? >.>

Esdeth just seems like a complete Blood Knight to me....if she has people to fight, she is happy. I can see her crushing the rebellion and then switching sides out of boredom. If she ever does get a Heel–Face Turn, I would bet that would be why.

I wouldn't call her evil so much as crazy. Seryu seems kinda the same way. Not really evil so much as nuts and on the wrong side. In the anime so far at least, Night Raid doesn't have anyone like that (they kinda should, honestly, it would fit the universe).

edited 1st Sep '14 3:40:36 PM by kiukiuclk

And that's entirely true. Then again, Seryu has less redeeming qualities.

By the way, I have to point out. When i watched the latest episode, regarding the list of what she wants out of a boyfriend, and she said "I'd like to train him".... ahem, "train" him, huh? XDD

edited 1st Sep '14 3:44:07 PM by Serocco

@KSPAM- just because Wild Hunt evilness switch is cranked up to fifteen doesn't make Esdese any less evil.

Also her Freudian Excuse isn't very good. Her father taught her to be merciless yes, but he never taught her to be cruel. That's simply in her nature. People who fight for survival have no resources to spend on pointless cruelty , they don't go around instigating more conflicts just so they can fight more.

Edit: I'm done for the day. This discussion has tired me greatly. Can we talk about something else? I liked speculating about Akane's trumpcard.

edited 1st Sep '14 3:45:00 PM by Shlugo_the_great

She was always a sadist, but it's not like she wasn't influenced by her father/environment along the way.

Esdeath is an example of someone who was taught one specific thing: be strong. Thing is that her father never really did anything to temper her sadism, so it makes sense as to why she's Colonel Kilgore.

Now, then, what's this thing about Akame's Trump Card? Is it supposed to be fire? Because that's the only thing that can beat Esdeath's ice.

edited 1st Sep '14 3:47:28 PM by Serocco

Fire would be pretty random trump card for a sword with one-hit kill poison ability.

Where did she get this trump card? Is it like a Bankai or something?

Did she recently develop it, or was it discovered via Ass Pull?

edited 1st Sep '14 4:02:35 PM by Serocco