Duplicate Trope: Gut Punch

Deadlock Clock: 21st Feb 2013 11:59:00 PM
Total posts: [33]
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Gut Punch as a trope seems to be based on YMMV and duplication of other, pre-existing tropes. The opening sentence of the description is just talking about how you (The Audience) reacts to the events you're witnessing (The definition of YMMV) and when it gets past that in the meat of the article it boils down to: "A moment where shocking events happen and change what was previously the status quo for the worse."

Except that the article pretty mucy exactly describes it as a Wham Episode (Which already exists). Or Mood Whiplash (Which already exists). Or Cerebus Syndrome (Which already exists). In fact, all of these are actually metioned in that article as "related tropes."

It just seems vague and content that is already covered by other, more specific tropes. It doesn't seem to have anything to recommend it as a unique trope.
2 SeptimusHeap29th Sep 2012 10:11:32 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
The trope is about moments. Most of the other tropes you mention are about episodes or otherwise more general.

Also, for an Audience Reaction it surely is natter-free.
3 AnotherDuck29th Sep 2012 02:46:55 PM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
It's sort of a Wham Moment with a sour feeling. I don't see that trope in any of the ones listed above.
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4 nrjxll29th Sep 2012 04:40:58 PM , Relationship Status: Not war
It certainly should be YMMV, but other than that, I think it's fine. The only trope I see it having some overlap with is Wham Episode, but that's more the fault of Wham Episode itself (which is sort of vague on what counts as an "episode" outside of TV).

And I agree that it's remarkably natter-free given the subject matter.
5 AnotherDuck30th Sep 2012 12:25:30 AM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
I think the overlap with Wham Episode has a lot to do with how that trope will very frequently contain a Gut Punch. After all, a Gut Punch is a good trope to use to create a Wham Episode. However, having a Gut Punch doesn't mean it's definitely a Wham Episode, since it can be expected.
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6 nrjxll30th Sep 2012 01:26:25 AM , Relationship Status: Not war
Also, when I say "remarkably natter-free", let me add that by no means is it actually natter-free. Some of the examples need cleanup no matter what else is done. What's remarkable is that it's not a majority of them.
7 KyleJacobs1st Oct 2012 02:23:27 PM from Connecticut/D.C. , Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
As the guy who YKKTW'd this trope, I feel I should help out with the repair. I would be fine with seeing it move to YMMV or not - I personally feel that it's more of a series tone trope than audience reaction, though.

As for natter, I'm running a related-works check and look through the example section. Stuff I would consider possible natter from related:
  • Gantz: Kurono getting killed off at the end of Phase I was upsetting. Valid example, crappy wording.
  • Kanon: Luckily, its averted in the anime, although they repeatedly Gut Punch your feelings before you get to the end. (Removed for misuse)
  • The Legend of Korra: The debate over the example itself is the primary reason this thread exists.

And from the example section:

EDIT: Made the changes to the example section.

edited 1st Oct '12 5:45:16 PM by KyleJacobs

This is not a subjective trope. This explains the one moment where everything turns Darker and Edgier. Take Sasakibe's death in Bleach, Legato's debut in Trigun, or that kid who fell outta his cockpit in Bokurano.

In that sense, Ace/Whitebeard's deaths in One Piece certainly make things more intense and graphic, but it's still pretty damn lighthearted, so I don't think that counts.

edited 11th Oct '12 7:21:24 AM by Sledgesaul

9 Serocco11th Oct 2012 12:35:30 PM from Miami, Florida , Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
I agree with Sledgesaul. This shouldn't be a YMMV trope. At least, not when we can properly keep it objective.
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I'd moreso be for renaming this Trope. I think "Establishing Wham Moment" would work pretty well, as the description suggests that it's what makes people realize why they're in for what they've been hyped to be in for. Say, like the beginning of Level 4 in Eversion. Which is the point where the cutesy-but-slightly-dark game takes a nosedive into Nightmare Fuel territory by having the eyes pop out of a block.

Or, as another user suggested, "Wham Moment". Though that might make it sound too similar to a Wham Shot. Incidentally, keep it an Objective Trope.

edited 28th Nov '12 3:30:13 PM by KingClark

I think that "Wham Moment" and variants would be too broad as titles. This trope is about a single moment conveying a darker shift in tone - something that actually shocks or disturbs the reader/viewer/etc. "Gut Punch" seems to convey both the negativity and the sudden-ness nicely.
12 Madrugada11th Jan 2013 12:00:34 PM , Relationship Status: In season
My strongest objection to this trope as it stands now is with the name: Gut Punch. Once again, we've co-opted a pre-existing term term in common use literally to name a trope metaphorically.

This is what I would expect a trope named simply "Gut Punch" to be about, not an episode-type.

edited 11th Jan '13 12:01:42 PM by Madrugada

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13 SeptimusHeap11th Jan 2013 12:09:35 PM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
I think that renaming might help here, considering that it has no natter that I can see (apart from messy Example Indentation, which is par on course for many pages)
14 AnotherDuck11th Jan 2013 08:23:49 PM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
A rename would help with what problem?

[up][up]I'd say less episode-type and more single-moment-type. Unless that's what you meant.
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15 Madrugada11th Jan 2013 08:44:08 PM , Relationship Status: In season
What I mean is that I would expect it to be about the action of a character getting gut-punched, the same way Groin Attack is about actual kicks or punches to the groin. I would not expect it to be an audience reaction to a moment or episode in a series.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
16 AnotherDuck11th Jan 2013 11:15:20 PM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
But do people think it means a physical gut punch, and not a metaphorical one? A quick glance at the wicks suggests they treat it as it should, though perhaps with some confusion with Wham Episode (which probably has more to do with your average troper's tendency to exaggerate).

Thing is, I won't support a rename if the name isn't causing any actual problems.
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17 SeptimusHeap12th Jan 2013 02:57:18 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
Yeah, I think that making this YMMV is the only thing needed here.
18 KyleJacobs12th Jan 2013 09:13:21 AM from Connecticut/D.C. , Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
On renaming: We do already have Audience Sucker Punch, which for some reason that completely escapes me is a redirect to Fight Unscene. That would be my suggestion if you insist on renaming it. That said, I haven't seen any misuse so far.

On YMMV: This is not an audience reaction trope, it's a sudden and surprising tone shift. It's not Wham Episode as much as it's a story element that causes something to be a Wham Episode in the first place.

EDIT: Another alternate name could be Wake Up Call.

edited 12th Jan '13 9:21:15 AM by KyleJacobs

19 RJSavoy12th Jan 2013 10:10:39 AM from Edinburgh , Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
I think we can keep this from being an Audience Reaction, but we have to move the focus away from the audience, who are the ones being "punched" in the title. From what I understand, this is a point where the writer tells the audience that the show will be darker, if not for the entire remainder, at least for an important stretch (definitely more than one episode of however the show is structured).

So it is intended to have an effect on the audience (as does every trope), but we should look at it from within the show. How about calling it The Scene Darkens?
20 AnotherDuck12th Jan 2013 06:48:44 PM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
I think Audience Sucker Punch should be a redirect for this trope instead of that one. That trope is way too specific for that redirect, as well as telling you how you should react to that trope, even if that's not what it's about. This trope is about that.
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21 KyleJacobs12th Jan 2013 09:32:40 PM from Connecticut/D.C. , Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of some variant of Wake Up Call as a rename.
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23 Noaqiyeum18th Feb 2013 08:40:32 AM from other worlds and realms of being , Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The it-thingy
We also have Player Punch.
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What I mean is that I would expect it to be about the action of a character getting gut-punched, the same way Groin Attack is about actual kicks or punches to the groin.
I now have a mental image of a page titled "Groin Attack" with the description of Wham Episode.
25 Larkmarn18th Feb 2013 08:21:07 PM , Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Just about to say that.

Player Punch seems to be a video game specific version of Gut Punch... utterly unnecessary.

Total posts: 33
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