Arrow. Green Arrow tv show.

The third season of Chuck also introduced Brandon Routh in the love triangle, same as the third season of Arrow. Perhaps that's the common denominator? Brandon Routh: Third Season Killer.

Of course, Chuck bounced back and became awesome again, so there's hope for Arrow, too.

He's called Curtis Holt here for some reason.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

I think that it's so they can more easily get away with the change in his characterization.

edited 4th Sep '15 9:52:17 PM by SpaceWolf

Connor Mcleod.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

You mean that Ted McGinley isn't a Showkiller? No, no, that's impossible. Every show he's been on has died a painful death!

Point...

Okay, what, exactly are people's problems with Season 3?

The most I've been able to gather is that people think Felicit cried too much and that Oliver acted like a jerk. But from what I saw, Felicity had plenty of good reasons for crying, and Oliver . . . have you watched the whole series? The guy's always been a bit of a controlling, distrustful jerk to his friends and family members.

My take on it:

At least here, Ollie gets flak not necessarily for being a jerk, but because of the way the plot with Malcolm was handled in general - wherein it was known that he was the cause of their troubles, it was known that he was actively continuing to scheme against them and make things worse for them as they were allowing him access to their resources. Ollie insists on handling things himself and not taking any major action against him, but as the schemes pile up and the characters end up in worse and worse situations because of their inaction, his reasonings (or, rather, the writers' abilities to deal with those reasons plotwise) become more and more flimsy.

So instead of coming off as someone making agonizingly tough decisions (as I assume was the intention) he comes off as an asshat that lets his friends and family fall into further and further turmoil and danger while refusing to them control their own stakes in what is going on, and refusing to act himself until it was too late. Not that the problem is merely limited to him - it really, really isn't. He's just the most obvious character who suffers from it.

The most important thing to note is that Arrow, in general, draws a lot of its "drama" from characters constantly chiding each other on the same failings and deteriorating situations while nobody does anything substantial to change things for insubstantial reasons, thus allowing the issues to swell to their peak unabated and make everything as bad as possible - and, thus, the climax to take place (essentially You Can't Thwart Stage One, except the lack of thwarting is largely the protagonists' own fault). The characters can acknowledge and lament about their mistakes, but they are not allowed to actually learn from their mistakes until the writers are done milking those mistakes for as much drama as possible.

This season was just especially bad about it. This all started (or at least, got noticeable) in Season 2. It's one of the main reasons I don't like Sara, in that her role in the plot (beyond making other characters agonize over her fates) was largely to tempt Ollie both intentionally and unintentionally into not solving his problems until the point of no return, but it got a lot worse here.

Speaking of which, on Felicity: the issue is in no way that she "cries a lot." The issue with her is that as the season went on she got written more and more as a tool of melodrama than as an actual character. She, moreso than any character except perhaps Sara, is constantly written in regards to what makes her relationships with other people in her life, particularly the men in her life, more dramatic - in a way that makes her more inconsistent than torn as was evidently intended. She gets together with Ray, causing a rift between her and Ollie because that's what the writers need for maximum interpersonal conflict. Then, after she gains a very strong connection and relationship with Ray, but then is suddenly agonized over loving Ollie and decides she doesn't love Ray after all because the writers need that plot to be all wrapped up in time for the next conflict (leaving Ray, incidentally, to come off as somewhat wasted). Most of her Lancer moments with Ollie and Ray in general, even when she has a point, are very obviously written because they make more twists in the romantic arc, not because the writers actually want to make something meaningful out of her objections - which leads into the point about characters learning their lessons above, because as much as Felicity criticizes everything this season, it's unfair that she gets flak for being a critic despite the real problem being that no one is listening.

The point where I just gave up on Felicity in general this season is the three-or-four episode span where she has a rift driven between herself and Ray over his superheroing, which starts off reasonable and then goes onto be more obsessive until she realizes that she's projecting her feelings for Ollie onto him and undergoes some character development over it, finally rejoining Team Arrow and such. Then the instant Ollie comes back the writers reverse it entirely and repeat the exact same plotline again so that Felicity can react to Ollie this time, thus rendering her arc and subsequent self-affirmations in the previous few episodes entirely pointless - her characterization goes around in a circle, simply for the sake of fostering as much drama as possible.

It was poorly written, ridiculous characterization wise, is not a good look in regards to how the series treats female characters in general, and just plain summed up everything that was wrong about the season in general: prizing cheap drama over characterization and plot.

edited 5th Sep '15 12:36:45 AM by KnownUnknown

I only know him from Married With Children, was he really that bad?

He's not a bad actor, he's just a Showkiller. He comes on shows and then they die painful deaths.

My main problem with season 3 is that it was a Just Eat Gilligan plot. The entire fault of the conflict was Malcom's but he was turned into a Karma Houdini by The Hero. I'm not saying Ra's wasn't a threat, but it's Malclom's fault he's even season 3's Big Bad.

My secondary problem was Felicity. She was literately only likable whenever she guest starred on the Flash. I don't care about her crying, but she was a wishy-washy hypocrite about Oliver and Ray. It made me dislike her romances with both of them, when before I was just apathetic about her and Ray and though her flirting with Oliver was cute when it didn't actually amount to a relationship.

@4701 the difference between Brandon Routh's character on Chuck and his character on Arrow: I didn't like the character of Daniel Shaw until he became a villain but I thought Ray Palmer was a good character.

Though my sister hated Ray Palmer and was hoping he would leave the show or die because she is an Olicity shipper.

I don't ship anyone I don't care if they have romance plots I just want it to be well written.

edited 5th Sep '15 9:53:48 AM by Halberdier17

See, I was just fine with the Malcolm plot. Maybe it's because I'm a big Vampire Diaries fan, but the hero protecting a villain because a) he's sort of family, and b) he can potentially be useful against the new villain in town, made perfect sense to me. That Oliver loses all perspective where his family is concerned was well-established in the previous seasons.

As for Felicity, I don't know what to say. I binge watched the whole season in the course of maybe a week, and her behavior never seemed erratic to me. She changed positions a lot, sure, but it always seemed to be in response to yet another crazy development.

Except Malcolm didn't have an established relationship with Ollie or Thea, not to the extent that they's need to protect him.Neither was he of any use against Ra's (especially since his plan was that he needed Ollie to protect him).

Also, Oliver was a piece of shit in Season 3. He says that Laurel doesn't have enough experience and training to be a vigilante......but then Laurel asks him to train her so that she can get more training/experience...and Oliver refuses. Just because he's a piece of shit.

Seriously, what a tool.

edited 5th Sep '15 12:29:43 PM by higherbrainpattern

That was just an excuse so that she wouldn't go out and get hurt (like, you know, her sister). Again: Ollie is often stupidly protective of the people he cares about. Not just as in overly protective, but as in protective in a stupid way. This is a well-established fact from the very beginning.

You may be right, but we're all gonna keep ripping on him anyway.

Honestly, after Laurel tried to kill that guy it was clear she was ready for it mentally either.

Nice.

That sums up a few thoughts I had, but hadn't really put together. This now how I think of Protective!Ollie in my head.

edited 6th Sep '15 1:02:49 AM by 32ndfreeze

You may also be right, but.....

Well, we're just gonna keep ripping on him anyway. It's fun.

I've just noticed that each new season starts and ends one day before the last one did in the previous year.

edited 6th Sep '15 1:13:03 PM by SpaceWolf

Given that Flash is going to have some influence from Arrow's HIVE storyline during its season, I wonder if Ollie is going to see some Earth 2 action without necessarily having to involve Barry.

Embrace Your Dark Side. Isn't that exactly what they tried in Season 3? And it turned the heroes into idiots?

Yes.