Merge and Rename (Alt Titles Crowner 2013-01-15): I Will Definitely Protect You get usage counts

Total posts: [137]
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We have an entire list of tropes that is essentially "this originated/has more meaning in Japan but is possible in the west", particularly Seme and Uke, Sensei-chan, School Idol, Salaryman, and Panty Thief.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:47:29 PM by KingZeal

77 SeptimusHeap9th Jan 2013 12:48:57 PM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
@76: These tropes have already defined reasons to be separate. This one doesn't.

@75: Considering the need for manforce in TRS, I'd be welcoming you here.
What reasons?

For example, what makes Salaryman not just "White Collar Worker in Japan"?

edited 9th Jan '13 12:52:53 PM by KingZeal

79 Fighteer9th Jan 2013 12:53:11 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
I strongly disagree with the idea that tropes can be culturally unique, but that is a matter to discuss elsewhere. For now, the point remains that there is no viable distinction between the Japanese and general versions of this trope.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:53:25 PM by Fighteer

I can prove that wrong.

Here is the cultural definition I wrote last page. Go through I Will Protect Her and I Will Definitely Protect You and count how many Western examples fit that definition.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:00:26 PM by KingZeal

81 Fighteer9th Jan 2013 01:06:47 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
The example from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn that I just added to I Will Protect Her fits that definition exactly. Guy pines for girl, believes his love to be unrequited (or unrequitable), declares Protectorate as a means of sublimating desire (and hopefully invoking Relationship Upgrade via Bodyguard Crush).

It's a universal trope, my friend. You are reading way too much into a single cultural variant of it.

Also, part of the reason for the poor adoption of I Will Protect Her is undoubtedly the dialog-based title. I didn't even know about it until I read this thread, at which point I immediately thought of a new example. And there are a lot of anime/manga examples already on I Will Protect Her, and you still haven't explained why that article cites the exact same phrase that you seem to think denotes something special and unique.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:08:17 PM by Fighteer

82 SeptimusHeap9th Jan 2013 01:08:43 PM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
If that variant is really distinct, you are in time to YKTTW it after we merged the pages.
The example from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn that I just added to I Will Protect Her fits that definition exactly. Guy pines for girl, believes his love to be unrequited (or unrequitable), declares Protectorate as a means of sublimating desire (and hopefully invoking Relationship Upgrade via Bodyguard Crush).

Er...possibly. But not the way you've written it.

Is there, at any point, a time when he says this in front of her or another person, and she either understands his meaning or someone else who feels that protecting her is the same as romance? Because that's basically the archetype in Japanese media. It's not just "I will protect her because I love her". It's an assumption that "I will protect her" is essentially a marriage proposal.

Your example sounds more like a Bodyguard Crush that happened to work.

Also, part of the reason for the poor adoption of I Will Protect Her is undoubtedly the dialog-based title. I didn't even know about it until I read this thread, at which point I immediately thought of a new example.

And there are a lot of anime/manga examples already on I Will Protect Her.

and you still haven't explained why that article cites the exact same phrase that you seem to think denotes something special and unique.

For the same reason that any subtrope is cited on a parent trope?

edited 9th Jan '13 1:20:32 PM by KingZeal

84 Fighteer9th Jan 2013 01:18:40 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Dear gods, King Zeal, the trope describes the entirety of the chivalry movement in Romantic literature.

And yes, in my example, the princess in question knows damn well that Simon wants her and is determined to push him away for her own reasons; she accepts his offer to protect her in the hopes that it will distract him. And yes, it does end in a Relationship Upgrade once she acknowledges her feelings for him.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:20:54 PM by Fighteer

Then it isn't the trope I described.

EDIT: Specifically, her willingness to accept his protection "to distract him" is where the problem lies in your example. In the examples of this trope I've personally seen (again, largely in asian media), the girl will only accept if she intends to return his feelings. If she doesn't, she will either deny him, say that it's a misunderstanding, or otherwise. Because accepting it outright is basically the same as accepting his intentions.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:36:20 PM by KingZeal

86 Fighteer9th Jan 2013 01:36:49 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
That's just a minor variant, far smaller than the distinctions already observed in I Will Protect Her. All it needs is a statement, "In Asian media, the female will typically accept only if she wishes to return the male's affections."

You are vastly overthinking this.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:37:59 PM by Fighteer

87 SeptimusHeap9th Jan 2013 01:39:09 PM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Ok, do we want a merge-or-not option/crowner here? I can see the discussion entering into a circle from afar.
88 tdgoodrich19th Jan 2013 01:41:35 PM from Atlanta , Relationship Status: Californicating
Simmer Down and Pucker Up
Sounds like a good idea, but first we need to call the current. It's been stable.
"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop

"I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard Cohen
89 SeptimusHeap9th Jan 2013 01:42:56 PM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
The current crowner has a contrasting "redefine" option.
90 Fighteer9th Jan 2013 01:51:34 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
The crowner options were premature, I suspect. Nobody really explored the idea that it was functionally identical to another trope; it was just assumed that the "Japanese variant" was a distinct concept.
That's just a minor variant, far smaller than the distinctions already observed in I Will Protect Her.

That's actually a different problem which I was going to reserve for a different discussion. I find that trope page to be too damn busy, personally.
92 SeptimusHeap9th Jan 2013 01:54:17 PM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
So, do we make a new crowner? I've seen that adding wholly new options to an already- running crowner tends to make a mess.
93 Fighteer9th Jan 2013 01:56:05 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
I think we need to scrap that crowner and start over, yes. I suppose I have to invoke my modly powers. Hang on a bit.
94 Fighteer9th Jan 2013 02:03:50 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
I think I got it. Did I miss anything?
95 SeptimusHeap9th Jan 2013 02:05:42 PM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Only to rename the thread to reflect that the crowner was changed. Nothing else is missing.
Am I allowed to add options beyond the two?
97 SeptimusHeap9th Jan 2013 02:15:00 PM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
What option?
98 Fighteer9th Jan 2013 02:19:22 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Propose it, please.
  • Redefine and rename as a trope which defines the declaration of protection as being something similar to a marriage proposal or equivalent relationship upgrade. Cultural variations will not be important. There must be an in-universe assumption or inference that this is the case.

My problem with the current crowner is that it's basically a False Dichotomy which greatly strawmans one option.
100 SeptimusHeap9th Jan 2013 02:27:21 PM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I don't have any objections, but please link to a finished description draft.

Alternative Titles: I Will Protect Her
15th Jan '13 8:12:17 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
The previous crowner voted to merge I Will Definitely Protect You and I Will Protect Her, with a new, non-dialog title. Please propose and vote for new titles to represent the combined trope, which is about a person swearing to protect another person.

Total posts: 137
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