Merge and Rename (Alt Titles Crowner 2013-01-15): I Will Definitely Protect You

We have an entire list of tropes that is essentially "this originated/has more meaning in Japan but is possible in the west", particularly Seme and Uke, Sensei-chan, School Idol, Salaryman, and Panty Thief.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:47:29 PM by KingZeal

@76: These tropes have already defined reasons to be separate. This one doesn't.

@75: Considering the need for manforce in TRS, I'd be welcoming you here.

What reasons?

For example, what makes Salaryman not just "White Collar Worker in Japan"?

edited 9th Jan '13 12:52:53 PM by KingZeal

I strongly disagree with the idea that tropes can be culturally unique, but that is a matter to discuss elsewhere. For now, the point remains that there is no viable distinction between the Japanese and general versions of this trope.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:53:25 PM by Fighteer

I can prove that wrong.

Here is the cultural definition I wrote last page. Go through I Will Protect Her and I Will Definitely Protect You and count how many Western examples fit that definition.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:00:26 PM by KingZeal

The example from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn that I just added to I Will Protect Her fits that definition exactly. Guy pines for girl, believes his love to be unrequited (or unrequitable), declares Protectorate as a means of sublimating desire (and hopefully invoking Relationship Upgrade via Bodyguard Crush).

It's a universal trope, my friend. You are reading way too much into a single cultural variant of it.

Also, part of the reason for the poor adoption of I Will Protect Her is undoubtedly the dialog-based title. I didn't even know about it until I read this thread, at which point I immediately thought of a new example. And there are a lot of anime/manga examples already on I Will Protect Her, and you still haven't explained why that article cites the exact same phrase that you seem to think denotes something special and unique.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:08:17 PM by Fighteer

If that variant is really distinct, you are in time to YKTTW it after we merged the pages.

Er...possibly. But not the way you've written it.

Is there, at any point, a time when he says this in front of her or another person, and she either understands his meaning or someone else who feels that protecting her is the same as romance? Because that's basically the archetype in Japanese media. It's not just "I will protect her because I love her". It's an assumption that "I will protect her" is essentially a marriage proposal.

Your example sounds more like a Bodyguard Crush that happened to work.

And there are a lot of anime/manga examples already on I Will Protect Her.

For the same reason that any subtrope is cited on a parent trope?

edited 9th Jan '13 1:20:32 PM by KingZeal

Dear gods, King Zeal, the trope describes the entirety of the chivalry movement in Romantic literature.

And yes, in my example, the princess in question knows damn well that Simon wants her and is determined to push him away for her own reasons; she accepts his offer to protect her in the hopes that it will distract him. And yes, it does end in a Relationship Upgrade once she acknowledges her feelings for him.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:20:54 PM by Fighteer

Then it isn't the trope I described.

EDIT: Specifically, her willingness to accept his protection "to distract him" is where the problem lies in your example. In the examples of this trope I've personally seen (again, largely in asian media), the girl will only accept if she intends to return his feelings. If she doesn't, she will either deny him, say that it's a misunderstanding, or otherwise. Because accepting it outright is basically the same as accepting his intentions.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:36:20 PM by KingZeal

That's just a minor variant, far smaller than the distinctions already observed in I Will Protect Her. All it needs is a statement, "In Asian media, the female will typically accept only if she wishes to return the male's affections."

You are vastly overthinking this.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:37:59 PM by Fighteer

Ok, do we want a merge-or-not option/crowner here? I can see the discussion entering into a circle from afar.

Sounds like a good idea, but first we need to call the current. It's been stable.

The current crowner has a contrasting "redefine" option.

The crowner options were premature, I suspect. Nobody really explored the idea that it was functionally identical to another trope; it was just assumed that the "Japanese variant" was a distinct concept.

That's actually a different problem which I was going to reserve for a different discussion. I find that trope page to be too damn busy, personally.

So, do we make a new crowner? I've seen that adding wholly new options to an already- running crowner tends to make a mess.

I think we need to scrap that crowner and start over, yes. I suppose I have to invoke my modly powers. Hang on a bit.

I think I got it. Did I miss anything?

Only to rename the thread to reflect that the crowner was changed. Nothing else is missing.

Am I allowed to add options beyond the two?

What option?

Propose it, please.

• Redefine and rename as a trope which defines the declaration of protection as being something similar to a marriage proposal or equivalent relationship upgrade. Cultural variations will not be important. There must be an in-universe assumption or inference that this is the case.

My problem with the current crowner is that it's basically a False Dichotomy which greatly strawmans one option.

I don't have any objections, but please link to a finished description draft.