Real Life People Cleanup Project

Does Obsidian merit a place on the wiki?

Since it's a Useful Notes page, technically I don't have a problem with it, but the article is of poor quality and just a stub. I don't know whether it's possible to improve it without plagiarising Wikipedia.

Obsidian is not a person, therefore it's not really relevant to this thread.

However, I would argue that a Useful Notes page on it doesn't really help anyone understand media any better.

Daniel Inouye

Main.Kat Dennings should be in the Creator namespace? Also, the notable roles section could use more than ZCE (given that they're supposed to be "notable").

I'd like some input on Characters.Rooster Teeth, if possible. Outside of uploading animated works, Rooster Teeth uploads video game news, LetsPlays, podcasts, and the occasional skit. I attempted a cleanup based on the idea that these are real people and shouldn't be treated like characters, but others countered with the idea that they build a narrative with how they edit the video games footage and purposefully exaggerate certain tropes for entertainment value.

I suppose my general question is: should Lets Players that don't create a persona for themselves in the video be treated as characters?

Katy Manning is a stub with Zero Context Examples.

Absolutely not. From what I saw of the debate on Ask The Tropers, though, the other side's argument is that the Rooster Teeth team actually does create personas for themselves.

In some instances, yes. I suppose it would be a good idea to differentiate between the character tropes invoked in the videos and the tropes that apply to them as creators.

Bumping this. Slobodan Milosevic has just got a page, which aside from being in the wrong namespace, has a trope list consisting mostly of NRLEP tropes. I think that should be cut altogether.

No appearances in fictional works that I can find (though his grave was vandalized by vampire hunters). I vote nuke.

edited 12th Sep '13 1:07:15 AM by Candi

Yeah, I can't see any value in retaining that page either, for the reasons mentioned above.

Same. Let's nuke it.

The article also has no inbounds, is not indexed, and is linked only on one other page, and that page is merely a medium subpage of a trope.

Nuke it. It will not be missed.

I've chucked it on the cutlist, and messaged lightysnake and Ambar Sonof Deshar, the two creating tropers.

I'm not the guy who created the Milosevic page. I will however, defend its existence on the following terms (and I apologise in advance if this sounds a little harsh and/or demanding, I don't mean for it to be taken that way):

We have a page for Adolf Hitler. It is not namespaced under Useful Notes. It contains almost every evil trope that exists on the wiki (so many in fact that it had to be broken up into alphabetical folders) including many of the ones you are saying should have no real life examples. Yet you guys did not cut it. Instead it was locked to prevent vandalism by Neo-Nazis.

We have a page for Josef Stalin. It too is massive in size and contains many, many evil tropes. We have a page for Benito Mussolini. Same story. Vladimir Lenin, Maximilien Robespierre, Osama Bin Laden...the list goes on and on. All of them have pages on this wiki, pages that include the very same lists of tropes you are claiming should not be applied to Milosevic. Yet I'm not seeing any of you leading the charge to have those pages cut. That's without even getting into the pages for Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Imperial Japan, or the countless pages dealing with various Real Life wars, all of which contain lengthy trope lists including tropes you are saying can't be listed for Milosevic.

You can't say something is against the wiki's rules, while simultaneously allowing other pages that violate those same rules to exist. It sends a very bad message (in this case that while we don't care about the opinions of Neo-Nazis, offending Serb apologists would be a shame) and is unfair and biased to boot. Either let the Milosevic page stay up, or cut Hitler. Either one is fine by me.

edited 12th Sep '13 8:31:48 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Many of these pages will need their own fixing. There's been discussion in the namespace threads but never a concerted action.

Yet somehow I expect that if I were to leave, and come back in a month or so, Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin will not have been cutlisted, despite its flagrant violations of all the rules you are saying the Milosevic page violates, and the fact that said violations have been now been brought to your attention. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. But I somehow doubt it.

Well, for one thing, I've been screening new pages specifically. If people want to overhaul the other pages, they can propose so.

Also, that page was in the wrong namespace as well, which with the other issues qualifies it for auto-cutlist.

There's one problem with those comparisons to the Hitler and Stalin pages: Both of those are referenced all over the place in fiction. Milosevic, not so much.

As for the other pages having NRLEP tropes listed, they shouldn't. That they do means that they're in need of repair, not that newer pages should be just as broken.

So once again, is the Hitler page. And the Bin Laden page. And the Robespierre one, none of which are under Useful Notes (which by the way, is where I completely agree that they should be. I'm not the one who actually launched the Milosevic page).

As to the notion of just spending time on new pages...a couple of things. A lot of Real Life people already have pages, if small ones. Take this entry for Francisco Franco for instance. Right now, it's two sentences. I could do a massive number of edits to it tonight, turn it into something resembling the page for Hitler, and you would never be the wiser (I may still do that for the record—I'm not seeing the value in a two sentence entry; it should either be something readable or go away, and given that Franco appears in a lot of fiction I lean the first way). Additionally, it is the existence of the Hitler and Stalin pages that allows for the creation of pages like Milosevic. People see it and go, "Hey, that guy has a page, and it is structured as follows. I think I'll put one up for [insert name here] and follow the same pattern."

Finally let me say that I don't actually want to see most of the pages I mentioned cut. I like the fact that we have these big, informative entries for the likes of Hitler and Stalin, that tell you what you need to know without visiting wikipedia, hit all the tropes they hit in real life (which are, coincidentally, the ones they are liable to hit in fiction) and then list the works they appear in. I think those are great pages. I'd just also like to have one for the likes of Slobodan Milosevic, and I'm not sure why it's a problem. We can fix the namespacing, and add the list of portrayals in media (which for the record, we were going to do anyway had the page been allowed to exist for more than a day), and beyond that, I'm not really seeing the issue.

If that's the tac you are going to take, that's fine. But the clean up had better get underway stat. When I look at the Hitler page, with its hundreds of tropes, and the lock on the page, I don't think "they don't want me copying that". I think "they like this page so much they locked it to keep it that way." And I somehow doubt that I'm the only one who thinks that way.

edited 12th Sep '13 9:07:28 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

That was my error, I apologize I forgot the wrong namespacing.

That said, I distinctly reject the idea Milosevic doesn't feature as much in fiction. There are plenty stories that do deal with his presidency, and the conflicts therein, as long as the Yugoslav wars and Bosnian Genocide are used in fiction. And they are frequently

lightysnake, would you mind waiting a bit before reposting the page? Especially given that Slobodan Milošević still has some of the problems of the earlier one.

I just slashed all the tropes on Slobodan Milošević.

My understanding is that TV Tropes policy is that we do no use tropes to describe Real Life people except in the Real Life sections of pages that are permitted Real Life examples.

For Creator page, the tropes listed are supposed to describe their works, not them as a person.

For Useful Notes pages, they should include a list of appearances in fiction, otherwise they are off mission.

I'd be happy to keep a page on Milosevic if it had at least three examples of his use as a Historical Domain Character.

edited 12th Sep '13 10:27:38 AM by Catbert

Which problems specifically? Because some of them (like listing the works he appears in) can of course be fixed after being launched.

@Nohbody

The Osama Bin Laden page doesn't list a single work he appears in, and thanks to its being locked, cannot list a single work that he appears in. There aren't a lot of works featuring Josip Broz Tito either (five or six are listed), yet he somehow has his own enormous page and nobody is complaining about it. Slobodan Milosevic is one of the defining political figures of the 1990s. He destroyed his country, reminded everybody that problems of genocide aren't going to go away anytime soon, and tested the willingness of NATO, the UN, and the USA to deal with issues like that. If somebody like Tito or bin Laden deserves a page, I'm not seeing why he doesn't.

When will you be cutting the tropes under Hitler? And Stalin? And Mao Zedong? If you guys can agree to unilaterally cut all of the tropes under Milosevic with no real debate, then I'm not seeing why you claim you'll need to "evaluate" those pages first. Just do it. As for his appearing in fiction...I again draw your attention to the bin Laden page, which is just a list of tropes, with two sentences about who he was and no listings of his appearances in fiction.

edited 12th Sep '13 10:33:31 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar