Complaining: Dead Horse Genre

Deadlock Clock: 5th Jul 2012 11:59:00 PM
Total posts: [34]
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This seems to be mostly complaining about music criticism. Also, there are a few points where it contradicts itself. I found this while looking for a supertrope about dead genres, which doesn't seem to exist. If this were about genres which aren't made much anymore, it would be fine, though it should be the music section of a larger piece. However, it seems to be mostly complaining that people like bands based on what they think makes them look cool instead of how good they are. If this is somethign we'd track at all, it seems like an audience reaction.

I would like to see this retooled into a piece about the genre popularity cycle. New genres catch on, then fade out and may or may not come back. A few are always popular, but their are lots of fads as well.
Didn't we just have a thread on this?

One huge problem with the page is each example's "exceptions" section, which nearly always dwarfs the actual example in length. If several current, popular works or a genre exist, it's not a dead horse genre. It's just, maybe, not quite as popular as it once was.
It looks like it got moved to YMMV a few months ago, but I don't think that really fixed anything. It's not about "I don't like this genre." It's about either "critics in general don't like this genre" or "this genre is no longer popular." There is something useful hiding in here probably, but moving it to YMMV is just putting a bad page in a place it doesn't quite fit.
I like the suggestion on this thread to rename to pet peeve genre or something like. The title suggests something akin to dead horse trope, only about genres, which I could get behind. Also, why is this music only? It seems like there's a missing super-trope and this needs to either be a section on that or be a subtrope which is renamed to something music-related.
Jazz banjoist? That might be a better page quote for Neoclassical Punk Zydeco Rockabilly.
7 Willbyr2nd Jul 2012 03:49:46 AM from North Little Rock, AR , Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Clock is set.
Problem still stands.Right now, it's "musical genres tropers don't like." I can maybe see a trope in there are the popularity cycle of genres or something, but the current page in useless and should be cut as the examples and name would neither one be useful for the new trope.
I made a new page action crowner here. Let's hope we can actually get some consensus this time.
10 ccoa5th Jul 2012 10:08:33 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Crowner, meet thread. Thread, crowner.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
11 SeptimusHeap5th Jul 2012 10:32:30 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
Deader Than Disco is about a genre that is hated due to backlash from being popular. Dead Horse Genre is about being hated in general, or at least the description sounds like this.

I don't seee a way to merge them.
We should also have something in the crowner about making this not music only.
If we're going to keep this and rework to not just be about music, we may to relate it to George Lucas Throwback (under whatever name it lands on) since it's about the revival of a dead genre.
I'm not really seeing how expanding this to be about any medium is going to improve anything. It's a complaining page. All expanding it will do is allow people to complain about even more stuff on this page. And That's Terrible.
If we redefined it to be about how genres are often fads that are popular for a few years, then fade rather than complaining about genres you don't like, it might work.
Walking the Earth
Edit: Never mind

edited 30th Sep '12 6:57:23 AM by supergod

For we shall slay evil with logic...
17 Madrugada30th Sep 2012 07:18:49 AM , Relationship Status: In season
Here's the two problems I see with the page and the examples:

Number 1:

  • The description says it's "music styles and genres that critics hate on principle."
  • The genres listed appear to be "any genre hipsters don't like, whether they're critics or not"
  • The Exceptions lists are groups that still are popularly appreciated.

The disconnect is that the group may both still have fans and be panned by the critics, and hipsters don't like anything that's popular.

Number 2:

The genres that are called Dead Horse Genres have no back-up for the claim that critics hate them on principle. Disco? Yes, it's easy to find music critics who are willing to say Disco Suck[ed/s] and I'm glad it's dead." But Arena Rock? Show Tunes? Contemporary R&B? Really?
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
18 MadMan40009626th Oct 2012 01:09:14 PM from Massachusetts , Relationship Status: My own grandpa
Yeah, an expansion to all media is probably the best choice at this point. Music gets to see its genres bitched at. Why not TV and video games and the like?
Catch me where? See my profile!
19 Madrugada26th Oct 2012 01:16:59 PM , Relationship Status: In season
Encouraging more complaining is not what we want to do.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
20 Jeduthun28th Oct 2012 01:19:09 PM , Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Won't you be my neighbor
It strikes me that the page as it stands has a very narrow, perhaps even idiosyncratic, idea of what it means by "music criticism." There are many broad sweeping statements about "music critics say..." followed by something I've never seen any serious critics say. Case in point: "For those people who haven't figured it out yet, most music criticism is very close to Fan Dumb and Hate Dumb." Really? Who? Maybe among those unspecified "amateur reviewers" the page also mentions a lot...

The definition of Dead Horse Trope, which provides the snowclone, is "A trope which has gone way beyond being a Discredited Trope to where the very act of parodying and/or subverting that trope has itself become a trope." (The clearest musical example I can think of for that is, ironically, Disco. And maybe Hair Metal.)
If you live as humans do, it will be the end of you. -James Thurber
Definitely not a weirdo
I'm with Maddy on this one. This page looks entirely like complaining about music genres you don't like. Expanding it will only attract more complaining, and make it complaining about any genres you don't like.
22 Jeduthun29th Oct 2012 09:44:28 AM , Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Won't you be my neighbor
Thinking about my earlier observation, I think there might be something tropable here, though the page as it stands would have to be pretty much rebuilt from scratch. (Or retitled: something like Critically Unpopular Genre perhaps? Once we figure out who those "music critics" are and eliminate the complaining....) Going off the "Dead Horse Trope, except for whole genres" idea, we could have:

- Dead Horse Genres — Whole genres (not just tropes) that survive mainly in parodies, subversions, or at best Guilty Pleasures. e.g.: Disco, Hair Metal, Melodrama, Vaudeville....

- Undead Horse Genres — Genres that get parodied a lot, but still have a sincere fanbase that's willing to see them Played Straight. e.g.: Opera, Big Band, Award Bait Songs...

- Forgotten Genres — The ones you have to be interested in history to have even heard about. e.g.: Minuet and Trio, Florid Organum, Parlor Ballads...

(There might be such a thing as a Dead Unicorn Genre, but I can't think of any possible examples.)


edited 29th Oct '12 9:46:16 AM by Jeduthun

If you live as humans do, it will be the end of you. -James Thurber
23 Xtifr29th Oct 2012 10:53:16 AM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
[up]That doesn't sound too bad, especially if the forgotten-by-history examples are rolled up into dead horse. Though I think you have melodrama miscategorized; it's hardly a dead horse. It's more of a meta-genre, like comedy or drama, and is still widely used.

Some other examples we can try to fit in somewhere: the Passion Play (probably undead), Courtly Love / Chivalric Romance (probably dead-horse/extinct), Madrigals, Commedia dell'Arte (not sure).

[down]Fair enough, but since the term is still so widely used, it might be confusing unless we carefully clarify what we mean. I'm not entirely sure Soap Opera is dying either; it may just be undergoing a temporary ebb.

edited 29th Oct '12 11:17:23 AM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
24 Madrugada29th Oct 2012 11:08:01 AM , Relationship Status: In season
I agree that that looks like a good way to handle it. But I disagree that Melodrama is meta. The genre "melodrama" is Dead Horse. Some of the techniques and tropes it used have become common ways of being meta, in part because the genre itself is effectively dead. Soap Operas were, I think Melodrama's last battleground, and they're dying off, themselves
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Since this is a real thing, I'd say leave the examples but clean up the complaining and put a tight leash on it.
"It's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil, we have rage and compassion, we have love and hate...murder and forgiveness."

Page Action: Dead Horse Genre 2
5th Jul '12 9:59:39 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Note: Not all of these options are mutually exclusive.

Total posts: 34
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