"On Negativity, Raeg and Whining" or "The Pernicious False Dichotomy"

I'd agree that you need to at least give a work some attention to give it proper criticism. For example, there's one song in Eurovision right now that was supposedly irredeemable, vapid trash. I gave it a listen, and instead, it turned out to be irredeemable, vapid trash with a catchy tune in the chorus. If I was in a position to give criticism, I'd say "keep whoever came up with the chorus melody, and fire everyone else". More specifically, pick lyrical topics the audience can better relate to, and find a songwriter who can execute them well (execution is ALWAYS an important part of any work, and must be taken into account), come up with a more memorable instrumental track, and- because sometimes there's just no other way than to put it bluntly- take singing lessons.

In writing, though, sometimes an excerpt is enough to provide some types of criticism. If someone's word choice needs work, or if they spend too long describing things that have absolutely no effect on the story whatsoever (not counting relevant imagery), then you can pick up on that without struggling through thousands of words. You can't know for sure that the whole thing has a compelling plot, or that a character turns out to be interesting and well-written later on from a brief introduction, but you can still give other types of valid criticism.

And on the other hand, if you have to read something, say for a class or whatnot, and you despise every word of it, then feel free to rail all you want about the idiotic plot, vapid characters, trite dialogue and everything else you hate. (I sure did more than once while in school.) After all, it wasn't your choice to read something you hated.

Or take Roger Ebert. I'm sure that he would have walked out of any number of movies, if it wasn't his job to sit through them and criticize them. And it's no coincidence that his reviews of terrible movies tend to be more enjoyable reads than reviews of actually good works.

My thoughts on some of the recent posts, warning: nitpicking

The repeating complainer that doesn't seem to leave may like that work, but dislike an aspect of it. This is common for series... maybe the issue the complainer is criticizing doesn't mean that he hates the work. Others usually conclude that he hates it because that's how they label most criticism. It's not divided in "hates the series" "loves the series" and "likes the series and doesn't mind the flaws at all". People can mind the flaws and still like the thing as a whole. Hatedoms exist, yes, but sometimes people are too eager to classify others as one. I'm not saying you do this, just talking in general.

Even if you read/watched it because you wanted to, there's nothing wrong about saying your thoughts about the dialogue, the characters, the plot, etc. The only problem would be if that criticism starts turning into "and everyone who dares like this is a moron"; maybe one think it's true but it disrupts discussions and sparks flame wars if it's on a forum. All in all I don't think there is any significant difference in if you experienced the work willingly or not, with the exception of the possibility that you get more annoyed at a work when you didn't want to read/watch/play.

—

Anyways I'm surprised by the posts here and the number of people that agree on most of the things we are talking about. I would have expected more people to disagree.

edited 30th May '12 2:52:34 PM by Anfauglith

@ King Lear: Just an FYI, I'm a girl.

Well I suppose I could post something provocative, but I can't really think of anything right now.

Edit: Maybe something like, "Star Wars is stupid and if you like it you're stupid but I haven't seen it." And then maybe something about religion. But nobody would take a comment like that seriously.

edited 30th May '12 8:49:33 PM by Lawyerdude

Well, in the case of Star Wars, you can figure out that it's not for you from the bits that have leaked into pop culture. You don't have to have seen it to know that it's a cliche-filled Heroic Fantasy, Recycled In Space, just like you can infer that, say, Twilight is a shallow romance with teenage vampires without even trying. Some people will recognize (in both cases) that they won't enjoy something like that, and there will be specific things about that style that they don't like, that they can cite for reasons they don't like it in the first place. It's just not enough for an in-depth critique.

Perhaps, except that I honestly love the original Star Wars Trilogy to the very depths of my being. And I was a huge fan of Mythology and Joseph Campbell and The Hero's Journey before knowing about it.

IDK if this is the right thread for this, but I wonder if one reason why certain genres satisfy some while others don't is related to a sort of underlying eternal message that good stories have but others don't.

edited 30th May '12 9:06:35 PM by Lawyerdude

I guess one of the things I have the largest problem with is me-too negativity (and, for that matter, me-too adoration). People who hate stuff because all the cool kids hate it, or because someone they're a fan of hates it, or whatever.

It's fine to think you'll hate something, or love it, because of what you've heard about it; unless you have something interesting to say, though, kindly keep your mouth closed. Fandom/hatedom slapfights are tedious for everyone else.

Any cases of this that don't involve the word "Twilight"?

Your post involves the word "Twilight".

edited 31st May '12 5:51:04 AM by Kullervo

fifty shades of grey, aka twilight for adults.

Any Final Fantasy Or Tales Series game will have a hatedom/fandom dichotomy. Also, Chrono Trigger / Chrono Cross.

Or hell, just take a stroll down the Contested Sequel page.

edited 31st May '12 7:40:39 AM by KingZeal

New Dunes didn't happen. The prequels didn't happen. Chapter House is where it ended. <hums manically>

edited 31st May '12 7:58:16 AM by Euodiachloris

Chrono Trigger has a hatedom? :wtf:

Given that humans are silly group oriented creatures who like fighting their enemies...There are likely many other cases beyond Twilight that I just don't care about because I didn't particularly care about Twilight's. It was a rather stupid affair. I don't have any offhand, but given what I know about humans and fandom behavior I have little faith in the possibility of there not being another instance of this, if not ten.

If it's something stupid that the Twilight fandom/hatedom has done I have faith that it's been done elsewhere in some fashion.

As for hatred and whining itself...I myself enjoy playing and reading and watching things I dislike and then whining about them. In fact I enjoy this so much I will often do it many times with the exact same thing. Do I hate Ocarina of Time? Yes. A lot. I also hate Link to the Past. I am compelled to play them because I adore the feelings of impassioned haterage I feel when playing them. Likely because I don't feel it to such an extent much of anywhere else and if I do I actively try to suppress it since I don't feel that hatred or anger are good and are to be calmed and then ignored.

I also love things that are bad and whining about them though I adore them in a sincere fashion. Such as Castelvania 64. I harbor little for it but love. It has problems, though many aren't as bad as people declare. It isn't a good game though and I love bitching about it and its many flaws. Though in a playful fashion which isn't the same as the way in which I enjoy complaining about how empty Ocarina of Time's world map is.

Constant complaining everywhere you go for things gets a bit draining though. For this and many other reasons I don't mingle with fandom much outside of a few little pockets. I also find constant praise and smashing down of negativity annoying. Specific sorts bother me more than others though. My least favorite reaction to criticism of a work or expression of dislike for it is for someone to try and defend the work and spend pages upon pages trying to get this person to go through it again or get to a certain part. I've noticed this with Homestuck fandom on the fora, the given argument being "It's different later on". This is true to an extent, but it is still Hussie's brand of humor and story telling. "Later on" also translates to "A couple hundred pages".

^Yes I am a member of it. I played it myself a while back and found little "amazing" about it. It was a standard RPG made by Square. The multiple endings I had already seen before in less well developed games from a few years before it. It had some characters who annoyed me and art that I didn't care for. I will give it Zeal though. The Kingdom of Zeal was cool.

Chrono Cross was an absolute mess on the other hand, but I loved it and the confused memories of it I have.

edited 31st May '12 9:10:27 AM by Aondeug

Any cases of this that don't involve the word "Twilight"?

Eragon also has a hatedom.

As well.as Justin Bieber and most Nick/Disney Kid Coms.

I personally know at least three people who hate Chrono Trigger. And it isn't that uncommon.

Just about everything has a hatedom, because some people just like hating stuff.

I've only ever known one person who even knows what Chrono Trigger is, and even then she hadn't even played it before.

I don't understand people who like hating stuff. The very concept confuses me.

Because it's not "hate" as in getting outraged or something. Some people tend to get confused and see hate when there's just criticism and/or complaining. I don't know why.

And sometimes criticizing something and being rather caustic can be amusing. Bah, I speak for myself. Heheheh.

edited 3rd Jun '12 1:53:55 AM by Anfauglith

I once continued to read and critique a particularly infuriating fanfic series because other than the bits that I hated (a Karma Houdini Relationship Sue; Deus ex Machina, Character Derailment), it was well written, and it "angried the blood." I still use it as an example of how not to get an audience to like a character.

I think one thing about hating on something people need to remember is most of the time, it's a good judge of quality. Either the piece or the person is saying something the majority doesn't want to acknowledge, or the piece or person really is a bunch of crap getting attention for no valid reason.

Example: Banned Book _I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings_ vs. _Twilight_. Even if you ignore the storyline of _Twilight_, the structure, grammar, and just written form's logic is completely jacked up.

But another thing to remember in regards to criticism is that our society right now is drastically saturated with media! We can e-publish books, blog, get free selections, rent the audiobook, download, red box or netflix it, etc. This has expanded our material to absorb but also given us better forms of media to consider as marks of quality.

I had never heard of "The Seventh Seal" before I was in college. All I knew was it was supposedly monumental to the movie industry in many different ways. So I found it at my library, borrowed it, and discovered as a religious scholar and art historian, I had discovered something I could geek out over in a fun and delightful manner. When my boyfriend let me borrow "Rambo", I adored it as well for most of the same reasons since it covers more of my fields of hobby and/or study.

Which brings me to how media overload is sometimes a negative for the creative arts. As an American, my country has been at war for almost half of my life. When 9/11 happened I was in 10th grade. Now I am about to graduate with my Master's and we haven't left.

I know more about the drug violence in Mexico, the atrocity of African rebel movements, the hate crimes in Indonesia, etc. And that's not just me. People are tired of hearing about bad, evil things. They want something mindless and light. My average countryman, if employed, is most likely under-employed or working multiple jobs. It's hard to keep seeing video of tornado or tsunami damage when you are trying to keep your lights on.

So because of this, I think that is a contributing factor on how the material is pumped out or pushed to the mainstream at this moment. Yeah, most of it's fluffy drivel, and we know it. But sometimes that's all people can digest.

I have some time to devote to this topic finally, so I'll chip in. For what it's worth, I'm the one who made that post that was quoted in the OP with respect to World Of Warcraft and Aggra hate.

There is nothing wrong with not liking something. Not liking something is also not anything that needs to be justified. There are plenty of things that I don't like. There are also things that I like, but find flawed, and thus criticize. "This character is weak. I think the storyline could have been improved if he'd gotten introduced earlier. As it is, I cannot find a reason to care about him." Not only is that a reasoned opinion, but it offers a way for the author to improve the situation to satisfy your concern.

Then there are things that I absolutely detest and cannot bring myself to watch/read/etc., period. I don't waste my time complaining about them or telling people who like them that they are horrible people. I just don't watch them.

What annoys me is the blanket writing off of a product on the basis of a limited set of complaints. For example, "I don't like character X, therefore the series has lost all its appeal for me." Unless character X was the only thing you ever liked the series for in the first place, that's an irrational statement. It also creates the impression that you aren't so much engaged in criticism as you are taking the series hostage. "Fix this one thing that bothers me or I won't watch your show ever again and I'll badmouth it to everyone I see."

What enrages me is projecting one's dislike for a product onto the people who do like it. "X sucks, and you are all a bunch of sheep who can't see its flaws." That's not just irrational but actively insulting. It implies that nobody can legitimately like a thing that you dislike. I get that a lot of people like Twilight. That's fine for them. I don't have any interest in it, but I also don't crap in their pool.

Both of the latter are also a form of Opinion Myopia in that you refuse to acknowledge that your dislike is an opinion, rather than an objective fact. Characters, plots, etc. are not objectively strong or weak. You have an opinion that they are strong or weak. Calling your opinion a fact and then asserting that someone cannot have a different opinion is dishonest.

Related is the phenomenon of turning parts of a work that you dislike into a personal insult from the creators. "How dare you change X? You must hate everyone who liked it." That's a complete failure to recognize that sometimes the creative direction of a franchise will take a path you don't like for reasons that have nothing to do with any particular fans. No author ever intends to drive their fans away (rare exceptions aside) and believing otherwise is a sign of delusional thinking.

Lastly, there is the problem of fixating on a particular design choice and calling Ruined FOREVER on the franchise. Frequently that runs afoul of the Anthropic Principle, which states that certain things are so fundamental to a genre or story that you cannot legitimately separate them from it and still have that genre or story. Complaining about them is like complaining about the sun being hot. For example, Superman is a Flying Brick with heat vision and Nigh-Invulnerability. If you cannot suspend your disbelief enough to accept that, then you cannot enjoy the Superman franchise. Complaining about it is pointless.

edited 8th Jun '12 8:27:59 AM by Fighteer

That reminds me of some people I know who criticize fundamental aspects of a fantasy or sci-fi story as "unrealistic". Really, anything that isn't a purely factual documentary can be labeled as "unrealistic".

"I hate The West Wing. It's so unrealistic. We've never had a President named Josiah Bartlett". That's an exaggeration, but you get the point.

You can think a story is ridiculous or stupid or uninteresting. But to say that you don't like something because it's unrealistic usually misses the point. Back To The Future is unrealistic in terms of science, but it's realistic in the way the characters generally act. You can imagine yourself acting similar to Marty if you were in his situation.