Misused: All Myths Are True

Deadlock Clock: 1st Feb 2014 11:59:00 PM
Total posts: [273]
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[up]But other people do, that's why it's subjective.

Robots and dinosaurs aren't fantasy or myth anyway.
And as soon as wizards are involved, nothing else is "inconsistent". That's why the trope is called A Wizard Did It.
Hey, I made a Mythology Tropes YKTTW, but I've been banned from editing (I have no idea why and no one has told me anything). So the YKTTW is very Up for Grabs at the moment. Can someone from this thread take it on?
I understand it as: All Myths Are True is when the work mixes many mythologies to the point where it becomes the expectation of the audience that myths are real unless it is said otherwise. A Mythology Is True is the same, but deals only with one particular mythology. Crossover Cosmology is when the work has various different gods from separate religions and mythologies. Fantasy Kitchen Sink is when pretty much every Speculative Fiction creature, whether it actually appears in a myth or not, is real.
The way I thought this trope worked was "If there's a reference to a myth, legend, ancient civilization, etc, mentioned in the work, that legend will be correct, and it will be very plot relevant".
I think "the expectation that myths are real unless it is said otherwise" is a good way of putting it.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
[up][up]That definition was already split off as The Legend of Chekhov. The question remaining is whether the other definition ("most if not all real-life myths are true in a work") is different from Fantasy Kitchen Sink and if so, how.
Harry Potter I would put under All Myths Are True rather than Fantasy Kitchen Sink. There are wizards, witches, banshees, ghouls, fairies, basilisks, dragons, hippogriffs, elves, ghosts, werewolves, unicorns, etc., but all this comes from real-world mythology. Fantasy Kitchen Sink is when the door is opened not only to mythology but also to superstitions, conspiracy theories, fairy tales, and the like.
[up]I really don't think that there's that clear a distinction between mythology and folklore and fantasy. If I was going to suggest one, it would be that "mythology" is based on old religions, but that rules out a lot of the stuff you just mentioned.
My Comparative Literature professor would tell you that the main difference is that folklore and fantasy are fiction, but mythology is believed to be true. I agree, though, that it's not really a distinction the tropes need to make.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
111 Xtifr15th Jun 2012 02:36:01 PM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
[up]Really? I would have thought that folklore definitely fits in the people-believe(d)-it category. In fact, my dictionary basically more-or-less calls mythology a subset of folklore. "The traditional beliefs, myths, tales, and practices of a people, transmitted orally."
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
There are people who believe in the Force (of Star Wars). That's hardly a clear distinction between tropes.
Well I think we've thoroughly proved the point that there's no clear distinction between those concepts. So I don't think that alone is a valid distinction between two separate tropes.
Yes, the whole problem is that All Myths Are True, Fantasy Kitchen Sink, and Crossover Cosmology are all stepping on each other's toes.

My impression has been that All Myths Are True has more to do with gods and historical Mythology & Religion (while Fantasy Kitchen Sink has more to do with modern fantasy races), while Crossover Cosmology is a case with fewer mythologies and/or more integration between them. On the other hand, someone on the AMAT discussion page claimed last year that FKS is AMAT Up to Eleven...

Useful links: AMAT Archived Discussion, including YKTTW 1.0 discussion FKS YKTTW discussion from 2007 CC YKTTW discussion, also from 2007
[up] >someone on the AMAT discussion page claimed last year that FKS is AMAT Up to Eleven...

On the discussion page? That's the first line of FKS!

"What happens when All Myths Are True is turned Up to Eleven? You get a Fantasy Kitchen Sink!"
[up]And the fourth paragraph in AMAT says "Take it to extremes, and you end up with the Fantasy Kitchen Sink."

That is also how they're used. Although it looks like most popular works simply appear on both pages, the expected result of different editors' different ideas of what's extreme enough.
117 ccoa14th Aug 2012 07:18:46 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
It would be a shame to discard all the work here, especially since we actually got a YKTTW launched out of it. So instead of clocking it (this time), I'm going to bump it.

What are we going to do here?
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
If we launched the YKTTW, can't we redirect this page there and clean up the wicks?
119 SeptimusHeap14th Aug 2012 08:24:20 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
Which YKTTW?
120 ccoa14th Aug 2012 08:25:47 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
[up][up]No, we launched the YKTTW to split off the thing this trope was being misused for. Merging them would just make a bigger mess than we started with.

[up]Chekhovs Legend was the resulting trope.

edited 14th Aug '12 8:26:39 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Well, why not put it to a vote on what to do about the whole AMAT-FKS-Crossover Cosmology problem?

We have three heavily overlapping concepts here, so I think we should clearly define two of them, widening the definitions as necessary, and cut or subtropeize the third.

My feeling is that Crossover Cosmology deserves its own space, since not every crossover means ALL myths are true— you can have a CC where the Greek gods are having a tiff with the Celtic Tuatha de Danann while Hindu, Aztec, and Christian cosmologies aren't factual. I think we should clarify that CC is pretty explicitly about deities and demigods, not random mythical creatures like griffons and fairies.

FKS often involves Crossover Cosmology, but does not require it. A FKS world may not have explicit deities at all (for example, Dresden Files has every mythical creature ever, and the angels certainly seem to think there's a creator-god, but He doesn't show up in the story if He exists, and it's implied that even the angels don't see Him directly). But it can and often does (as in American Gods).

AMAT seems to be the overlapper here; if all (real world) myths are true, you're automatically in a kitchen sink, and automatically in a crossover cosmology. I suggest we cut it, or if not, let's narrow the definition somehow and make it a subtrope to one or the other.

edited 14th Aug '12 10:01:08 AM by Escher

[up]I agree 100% with all of this. Merge AMAT and FKS under either name, clarify the difference to CC as described above.

edited 14th Aug '12 10:05:18 AM by johnnye

I still think "the expectation that myths are real unless otherwise stated" is a good way of putting it. Also, strongly oppose merge.

edited 14th Aug '12 5:15:29 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
The expectation that a stated myth will be true? That's The Legend of Chekhov. The expectation that all myths are true unless otherwise stated? That does not exist.
The expectation that all myths are true unless otherwise stated? That does not exist.
All Myths Are True. I was quoting [1].

edited 15th Aug '12 11:41:51 AM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Page Action: All Myths Are True
14th Jun '12 5:40:04 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
All Myths Are True is being misused as "real world myths are used in a work", while it really is about a myth turning out to be true after mentioned in-universe.

Total posts: 273
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