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Ambiguous Name: World Map
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Ambiguous Name: World Map get usage counts

 51 Troacctid, Tue, 1st May '12 7:48:48 AM from California
To simply call something a "World Map" when you are not refering to all World Maps violates clarity because you are not saying what type of world map you are talking about. You are giving the false impression that the trope refers to something much broader than it really is.
Nobody ever gets confused about An Axe to Grind. Just sayin. *shrug*
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Dragon Writer
It is using pre-existing terms for something other than what they mean that creates confusion ... the false impression that the trope refers to something much broader than it really is.
For the Nth time, there is no such confusion on this wiki.

edited 1st May '12 8:07:57 AM by Stratadrake

 53 shimaspawn, Tue, 1st May '12 9:11:04 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
@Catbert: Your argument is based only on your own speculation. Mine is based on facts and on wiki usage. As a result, your argument lacks all basis in reality as the facts don't support it. Thus it must be dismissed and thrown away. Sorry.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Your argument is based only on your own speculation.

There is nothing speculative about the fact that "World Map" has a meaning far beyond things that appear in video games.

Mine is based on facts

No facts have been provided to demonstrate that anyone outside this wiki defines "World Map" as something exclusively found in video games.

and on wiki usage.

This wiki is not the end all end be all when it comes to defining terms.

For the Nth time, there is no such confusion on this wiki

No one confused The Chamberlain with someone holding the office of chamberlain, yet many of you used that as an argument for rename. No one confused The Doctor Dolittle with a lazy doctor, yet it was renamed in spite of zero evidence of misuse. No one has demonstrated that The Unexpected is being used for something other than characters, yet the suggestion has recently been raised by a prominate personage to tweak that name.

But an existing patern of misuse or lack there of is entirely irrelevent in this case, because you can't demonstrate misuse on a trope that doesn't exist yet. I'm making suggestions for new names for new tropes. As such, pointing to guidelines on renaming existing tropes are quite beside the point.

edited 1st May '12 10:26:06 AM by Catbert

 55 shimaspawn, Tue, 1st May '12 10:36:07 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
The Chamberlain had underuse issues. The Doctor Dolittle was experiencing misuse as a character archetype when it was a Stock Superpower. Just because they were renamed for other valid names doesn't make the bad arguments people threw out suddenly good.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Reposting this here becaue you seem to keep missing this.

...you can't demonstrate misuse on a trope that doesn't exist yet. I'm making suggestions for new names for new tropes. As such, pointing to guidelines on renaming existing tropes are quite beside the point

 57 shimaspawn, Tue, 1st May '12 11:04:25 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
And we're talking about a trope transplant that would make this trope exactly what it's used for.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Dragon Writer
Facts? Okay, Catbert, I got some facts right here:

  • "World Map" is a pre-existing term for global maps in general.
  • But on this wiki, there is essentially zero confusion or misuse of "World Map" for anything outside of videogames.
  • The only misuse this trope even has, comes from it being used in a broader sense than its current definition.
  • There are several opportunities for filling in missing Map Tropes.

And,
  • The reason trope A got renamed may or may not have anything to do with whether or not we should rename trope B.

edited 1st May '12 8:56:58 PM by Stratadrake

Once again, I'm not talking about renaming anything. I'm talking about potential names for a new trope that doesn't exist right now, namely the trope of all world maps in video games.

The merits of a proposed title for a new trope must be considered independently of any existing misuse of that trope, given that the trope doesn't exist yet.

The perspective I'm looking at is seeing a pattern of tropes that got misused because they took a pre-existing phrase and used it for something substantially narrower than what the trope actually mean. Or Is It, Not Wearing Pants, Heroic Pet, and more all demonstrate a pattern of tropes being misused because they lacked a key qualifying word or words in their name.

The only misuse this trope even has, comes from it being used in a broader sense than its current definition.

Again, the fact that the current trope (a specific type of map in video games) gets misused reinforces general pattern of tropes being misused because they took a pre-existing term and used it for a meaning much narrower than the pre-existing meaning. Yes, the misuse of the current trope only contains certain types of misuse and not others. However, the fact that it is misused at all is a cautionary tale against imprecise names that should be taken into consideration when coming up with names for new tropes.

Names for new tropes should be held to a more rigorous standard than names for established tropes. If a trope is well established in the troper custom and we can't demonstrate a problem, we should probably avoid making substantial changes. Whatever the objective shortcomings of the name, it gets grandfathered in. For example, we see this happen with some stock phrase, dialogue or character named tropes.

However, that doesn't mean that when creating new tropes, we should blithely make the same sort of naming mistakes that have caused problems with many tropes.

edited 1st May '12 10:28:15 PM by Catbert

Dragon Writer
...Hey, it seems the one thing we aren't arguing about is moving the current definition of World Map to a new name.

Maybe we can get an AT crowner started, then decide what to do with everything else?

edited 1st May '12 9:19:38 PM by Stratadrake

I have a stupid question. Do we have a trope for the Alternate History Map or is that under Fantasy World Map ?

like so

edited 1st May '12 10:24:47 PM by animeg3282

Dragon Writer
Alternate history. Alternate history.

(Okay ... I have to concede regional differences here, but an awesome rule of thumb I saw suggests to use alternate to mean "substitute or replacement" — a primarily US usage btw — and alternative to mean "choice or option".)

edited 1st May '12 10:44:12 PM by Stratadrake

Based on the name, the defintion, the laconic and the bulk of the examples on Fantasy World Map, I would say that the trope is limited to fantasy worlds. Historical Fiction, alternate history, future Earth, science fiction worlds, and fiction set on Earth using Real Life or mostly Real Life geography doesn't seem to be explicitly covered. You might be able to shoehorn in science fiction worlds, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of use for that.

So, for example, the maps in Larry Bond's technothrillers that show the parts of Earth where the story takes place (Korean peninsula for a book about a second Korean War, South Africa for a book about a war in South Africa, etc), or the maps of ancient Rome and Ostia in many of The Roman Mysteries would not be covered under any existing trope. That is why I think we need a Setting Map trope.

edited 1st May '12 10:26:48 PM by Catbert

Sorry...I get my words mixed up pretty often.

Dragon Writer
Nah, it's cool. Commonly confused words are just a minor Berserk Button for my inner Grammar Nazi* ... I remember correcting somebody using "onto" in place of "on to" in a Nanowrimo swap.

edited 1st May '12 10:43:28 PM by Stratadrake

That's a mute point.
Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel.
Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Stratadrake, are you planning on hollering to have the crowner attached, or is there a reason you were holding off on that?

Dragon Writer
Somewhere during all the heat of discussion I ended up drafting three crowners (SP on "expand to all media", PA in general, and an AT for the current page definition). Which one do we want?

edited 2nd May '12 8:47:06 PM by Stratadrake

 69 tdgoodrich 1, Wed, 2nd May '12 8:18:41 PM from Atlanta Relationship Status: Californicating
Same Kind Of Bad As Me
[up]Wouldn't the PA crowner make the most sense to start with?
"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop

"I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard Cohen
Dragon Writer
So far the only thing we've been able to agree on is splitting the current definition to a new name because the current name is collecting some misuse. But yeah, take your pick.
 71 Koveras, Fri, 4th May '12 8:44:44 AM from Karlsruhe, Germany Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Mastermind Rational
Just popping in to say that Point-and-Click Map has been launched.

/me runs out again, dodging dishes

edited 4th May '12 8:44:57 AM by Koveras

Dragon Writer
So where's the crowner? I thought I hollered for that like last week.... [1]
 73 lu 127, Mon, 14th May '12 5:49:48 AM from the Capital of Light Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Crowner hooked.
迷子の足音消えた
代わりに祈りの唄
 74 Willbyr, Sat, 19th May '12 5:35:30 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Calling in favor of Trope Transplant 1. Make it so.
Dragon Writer
Then let's get the title party started.

Alternative Titles: World Map
1st May '12 9:15:27 PM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the name will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of Crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative names.
At issue:
New title brainstorming for "depiction of a Video Game setting map that allows free player exploration between discrete levels/areas" (e.g. Final Fantasy-style world maps; current definition of "World Map")
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