Page Restoration Petitions

That is my understanding as well, Pyrite.

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I'm pretty sure general stance on that one is that fiat or not, the P5 would have voted against it, so it's a moot point unless someone makes a really good appeal.

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About that, J Teeth... We've been trying to appeal that decision on the grounds that the decision was not made based on proper assessment of the content, but decided to hold it off until a full panel can be convened. (Which, if my guess is correct, will probably not be before 2015.)

Not a substitute for a formal medical consultation.

I have said I would be willing to revisit for at least a partial restoration it on grounds that there is conflicting information on which version is "worse". Since moderation tabled the issue of Cat's replacement, it seems silly to hold out for a full panel.

edited 2nd Jan '13 8:03:49 AM by tdgoodrich1

"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard Cohen

...It does, doesn't it? Let us know when you're ready to revisit the matter, then, although it's been such a long while I've forgotten our original arguments.

(If I recall correctly, the last time we revisited the issue, Discar, Komodin and Meeble stated that their original votes hadn't changed. But I'll wait for their word on the matter.)

edited 2nd Jan '13 8:22:56 AM by Pyrite

Not a substitute for a formal medical consultation.

I'd be willing to give the Manga its own review, since I made my original decision based on the anime. If Disc, Komo and Tgood are fine with re-reviewing it then I am as well.

edited to clarify: My vote for the anime will remain unchanged.

edited 2nd Jan '13 11:44:03 AM by Meeble

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No word from Catalogue yet? Or any assurance that we're making headway with finding a replacement? Dammit, I knew we should've done that "reserve members" suggestion!

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

I would like to respectfully suggest restoring the page for the Conrad Stargard stories by Leo Frankowski (I believe they might have been indexed as The Cross Time Engineer). I only recently found out about the deletion and the argument seems to have gone along the lines of "in one chapter, Conrad had sex with someone underage in the United States but legal in Europe and of marriageable age in the time period". I haven't read through all of the books recently, but my memory of it is that it was a fairly brief mention, and non-explicit. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like any of the people who voted had actually read any of the book, instead relying on a handful of Amazon reviews for their judgment.

For the pros of the work, I find it to be one of the nicer reworks of the A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court story, using solid engineering to improve a society, at least through the first four books or so. After that, Frankowski started making Conrad a little too perfect in my opinion, and pulled Deus ex Machina left and right. I never read the last, self-published, book, I'll admit.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like any of the people who voted had actually read any of the book,

Pardon, but you might want to make an argument that doesn't have this in it.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I don't mean to cause offense. If you click through to where I linked the discussion above, all of them state that they didn't read the book, but relied on the information from the reviews.

Yeah. The main issue with this sort of argument is that it comes off as an attack.

Concerning the arguments themselves, while not being a 5P, I have to say that your arguments do not really address the reasons it was cut for - a good work will still be cut if found to be paedopandering.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

You're right. I should have found a better way to express it. I meant to indicate that I felt that the reviewers lacked access to the facts at hand and were having to resort to secondhand information.

As regards "paedopandering"... I suppose I don't quite get the argument being made. Yes, there is at least one scene involving sex with someone underage for the United States in our current time. Someone stuck far back in time decides to put it all behind him and go with the current time that he's stuck in. As far as I remember, that's the one time that underage sex gets raised in the book and it's not glorified in any way. To me, it's a case of Values Dissonance exhibited in the text. I could see arguing that the book is pandering to the same group if Conrad continues swiving 14-year-old peasant girls, but from what I remember, his conquests tend to be more mature from that point onwards.

I guess my central argument is that the entire reason for deleting the page was a small part of one book of a series, from information provided secondhand. I'll leave my argument at that.

A small portion of the book is enough to get it cut. It's a zero tolerance policy.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Well, there's apparently five or eight or so books in the entire series...and if it's really just one small instance in one single book that is apparently non-explicit and un-glorified...

At the very least, I don't think a re-review of it with better information should be out of the question. There really wasn't much actual information presented at the time beyond claims from a couple amazon reviews.

Or at least someone that can point out exactly where to look for this scene.

edited 5th Feb '13 11:04:16 AM by Raidouthe21st

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Let's see here. Okay, the most pointed argument against it.

The argument boils down to the fact that Conrad is a modern man in this setting that continues to engage in such acts with underage girls with not a care in the world. It's not so much historical accuracy as that the book appears to support him.

Now, given our standards with visual novels, if this is something that only occurs in one single book that might be different. We'd just cut references to that novel. However, I'm not sure that this is the case.

edited 5th Feb '13 10:57:57 AM by Arha

@Fuzzy Boots

If its one instance and you can tell us which book and which chapter that would go a long way to getting it looked at, and then the 5p can make a ruling on it.

So he sleeps with a single 14 year old once? A 14 year old that would be considered old enough to get married in her own society?

Isn't the character supposed to be a modern Pole? Age of consent in modern Poland is 15, so the girl would be barely underage by modern standards. In the neighboring country of Hungary, it is 14. Same with Italy, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Montenegro, Portugal, San Marino, and Serbia. Spain is 13.

Why should a modern Pole living in medieval Europe be too terribly concerned about following 20th-21st century American laws?

edited 5th Feb '13 5:35:12 PM by Catbert

I'd really just ask to see the chapter with said fourteen year old handmaiden in question before anything else. It's fine and all to debate whether it's out of line for the story, but the question is "does this kind of content even exist" is more important.

...I mean, so far, I haven't really seen any mention of this kind of material in the book from any other reviews I've seen for this book...where exactly is it?

edited 5th Feb '13 5:57:23 PM by Raidouthe21st

We Are Our Avatars Forever (Now on Discord by invitation, PM)

Catbert: Well, the review did say that after doing it once he felt a pang of conscience and then decided to keep doing it anyway since it was legal. Also, in the interest of fairness I'll note that if we're not using Japanese age/acceptability/whatever standards then we shouldn't use Polish standards. I believe we're using basically using American standards, yes?

It does sound like the impact this has on the story is minimal, but we do have a zero tolerance policy. At the very least we need to question getting rid of the novel in which the incident occurred even if it only happened in one book. Though that would be kind of weird, honestly.

edited 5th Feb '13 6:14:31 PM by Arha

OK. I reread the book in question. And I'm going to eat crow. Not only does he spend much of the first book having sex with the various serving maids, but one of them, the only one explicitly stated to be fourteen (and the one mentioned where he mistook her for sixteen), is one of the ladies he winds up marrying (yeah, he winds up marrying more than one woman. Go figure).

So, long story short, the main character, with his modern background, has no problem going with the medieval culture and sleeping with fourteen-year-olds so long as he things they know what they're doing. If we're going with the non-medical definition of pedophilia being attracted to people under the age of consent, he qualifies. *wry grin* Admittedly, under that definition, the majority of males have pedophilic urges, but that's why psychologists distinguish it by sexual maturity rather than by local age of consent.

I formally throw in the towel and I apologize for letting my apparently misty and sentimental memories of the book cloud the issue.

Eh, it's cool. If anything, you helped to give us a stronger reason for keeping it gone.

Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.

It looks like Shoujo Sect was cut but never reviewed. I think it was on the hentai index and just got overlooked. It should probably get a once over.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Yes, that page was on the hentai index.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

And here I thought that we had gone over that index's entries in its entirety. Maybe someone confused it for Shoujo Senki, which IINM had been cut and remains so?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

No, it was on the Hentai index. We didn't review everything on there.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman