Split and/or Create Supertrope: Zettai Ryouiki

I disagree with creating another trope for Western examples. The term "Zettai Ryouiki" isn't used to refer to the symbolism, it's just used to refer to socks+skirt. If an overtly sexual anime character wore thigh-highs then it would still be an example of Zettai Ryouiki, it just wouldn't fit the usual symbolism (just like how a normal guy who wears a robe and wizard hat would still be an example of Robe and Wizard Hat).

I've typed up Sandbox/Zettai Ryouiki Rework, taking some of shimaspawn's notes on p4 into account. Replaced the stuff about "innocent, budding sexuality" with "characters generally wear Zettai Ryouiki to compensate for their own lack of confidence or maturity, hiding an amount of skin roughly proportionate to how much they hide their true self."

edited 18th May '12 7:45:26 AM by Prime32

The description still needs rewriting here.

Why are we rewriting the description?

That wasn't in the crowner. The crowner just says we are going to split off Action Girl + hot pants into it's own trope.

edited 6th Jul '12 5:47:11 PM by Sackett

It's right there in the top option of the crowner:

"Asian specific variation with the three grades and personality types."

We need to rewrite the description to put more emphasis on the character shorthand each type represents.

But there is no character shorthand.

This is a costume trope not a character trope.

This trope is about the lenght of legs not covered by socks (?) being used as a personality trope. So yes, it's a character trope.

What?

No it isn't.

Look, this isn't some trope we made up, this actually exists. It's just a short skirt with knee high socks with a specific ratio of skin showing. Which is associated with "budding youth" or in other words a sort of innocent sexuality.

The characters that wear this can have virtually any personality. It tends to be associated more often with Tsundere, because that innocent sexuality is a big part of the Tsundere package, but there is no list of personality types that wear this... unless you just want to list every personality type.

Shy girls, Genki Girls, Emotionless Girls, Tsundere, Yandere, heck I've even seen Hooker with a Heart of Gold types wearing this.

I understood the crowner to be about splitting the Action Girl + Hot Pants part off (Which seems reasonable) and keeping the current one as it basically is: The ratio of skirt to socks with the various grades, and it being associated with an innocent sexuality.

The innocent sexuality part being what I thought the "personality" in the crowner was. But suddenly people want to rewrite the description with something that isn't actually part of this trope?

I don't get the purpose of that.

edited 9th Jul '12 7:34:14 AM by Sackett

Yes, it is. And it's already part of the trope. See this post.

What?

Shima is just wrong, that's not part of the trope. Grade A is used because it's attractive, not to signal sexual aggression on the part of the wearer. I've seen plenty of innocent types wearing Grade A.

I have never seen any description of Zettai Ryouiki grades anywhere else making that kind of personality differentiation between Grade A and Grade B.

This is primarily a costume trope. There's nothing wrong with that. Why are we trying to impose a personality test that simply does not exist?

We are supposed to catalog tropes as they are, not try and rework them into what we think a trope ought to be.

edited 9th Jul '12 7:42:13 AM by Sackett

You seem to be the only one who disagrees with that distinction, as we were all okay with it.

We are trying to move the trope away from being chairs-y and into being more about personality.

I don't really know anything about how Zettai Ryouiki and how it relates to personality, but Sackett seems to be actually trying to make points, while you're just ignoring them and appealing to the majority. That alone makes me want to side with him.

One question here: If these grades aren't about personality, why do they exist at all?

An attractiveness measurement.

The problem is that, while the trope exists, it falls into the trap I outlined in this thread. Specifically, this part:

"[Visual Trope] examples usually fit somewhere between Zero Context Examples and a bunch of cruft that may or may not have anything to do with the trope itself."

That is exactly the trap we're falling into here. Zettai Ryouiki may or may not have anything to do with personality, but a character of literally any personality can fall anywhere on the scale. We're making complete guesses as to "intent" in order to give examples deeper meaning than might actually exist.

edited 9th Jul '12 8:33:27 AM by KingZeal

And we're right back to where we were before then. If there's no symbolism attached to the grades, then this isn't a Japanese only trope. It's the same trope that is used in and originated in the West.

edited 9th Jul '12 8:34:54 AM by ccoa

It's a Japanese-only trope in the same way Jiggle Show is a West-only trope.

That made zero sense. Care to elaborate?

He means that they can (and do) exist in other cultures, but there is only a conscious invocation of the trope in one specific culture.

It's basically a tactic like seeing a market and filling said market with product specifically designed for said market. Kind of like the superhero movie boom of the 21st Century.

But that's not the case, either. It's clearly used as a fanservice trope elsewhere, it's just not nearly as popular and doesn't have the (creepy) levels of analysis.

Thus his point.

Think of it this way, a Musical Number is a completely different thing in a Bollywood production, where every movie is a musical. And a Reaction Shot means two different things in Western and Eastern film, despite incidentally being the same thing. Likewise, Zettai Ryouiki means two completely different things in America and Asia even though they are technically the same thing.

I'm thinking we've got another Missing Supertrope here.

edited 9th Jul '12 9:24:49 AM by KingZeal

...Which is what this crowner is addressing. Golden Thigh Ratio will be the supertrope.

If abk's theory is correct, though, that would be backwards.

The Golden Thigh Ratio would be the sub-trope.

Apparently they don't, though. At least, that is what you guys are now arguing. If the symbolism is the same, and the costume is the same, then it's the same trope. "More popular in Japanese media" is not sufficient distinction for a subtrope.

edited 9th Jul '12 9:31:02 AM by ccoa

That...really doesn't make sense.

Is Destructive Romance and Romanticized Abuse the same trope?

And that doesn't make sense, either. I think we're talking past each other here.

Trope:

• Over-the-knee stockings, boots, or socks
• Short skirt
• Exposed strip of thigh between
• An innocent, mild form of fanservice that draws attention to a girl's upper leg area through contrast

This trope is used in both Western and Eastern media. If there is no symbolism for grades, then it has exactly the same use in both. There is no functional difference and no reason to have a "IN JAPAN" and "EVERYWHERE ELSE" version. There has to be a difference in how it is used or what the meaning is in order to have a different trope.

edited 9th Jul '12 9:39:40 AM by ccoa

There is symbolism attached to the grades in Japan, but that doesn't mean every Japanese example is going to follow that symbolism. The majority do. That's what makes it a trope. Tropes don't have to be no exceptions to be trends in media.

If a Japanese example doesn't follow the symbolism of the grades, then it can be part of the supertrope. That's cool. Just because it's Japanese doesn't mean that it's going to be part of the Japanese specific subtrope. There's no law that says all works need to use the grades.

edited 9th Jul '12 11:08:39 AM by shimaspawn