Rename (alt titles 4/24): Bottle Fairy

I think we really need The Alcoholic as a supertrope.

I dislike this name (it's unintuitive and feels like it was intended as a reference to the animé of the same name), but it's not being misused and I don't know any pre-existing term for a hard-drinking girl (apart from The Lad-ette, but that covers a lot of other things as well), so it doesn't need changing.

It is being misused. It's being used for both men and for any woman who drinks a lot no matter if she fits the trope or not.

Shima: Is that a case of Missing Supertrope Syndrome or caused by the name, though?

I think it's a little of both. The non-indicative name is making the problem worse than it would be with a clearer name.

Hm, then I'd suggest we address the missing supertrope first and see if there are any other tropes we're missing while we're at it. Frankly, I kind of like the name and I'd rather not see it changed if possible.

edited 24th Mar '12 1:55:20 PM by Arha

Isn't it already listed as a subtrope of The Alcoholic? Though, I wonder which one is older.

Anybody do a wick check?

Oh, there isn't an missing supertrope. The supertrope exists as does a sister trope Lady Drunk but this page is still being misused for both of them. That just makes it worse.

So what level of misuse is there on this?

Working on a wick check right now, but right now it's not looking good.

Fo RKSer here: the fact that there's a page where it's not only misused but also has a false negative — so it's not like no one aware of the trope edited the work page in question — is a strong argument in favor of a rename.

I'm not normally impressed by allegations of false negatives, but this is a special case.

A false negative is a ... what, again?

A false positive is when an example is listed as this trope, but it's not really this trope. A false negative would be the opposite: when this trope should be listed, but is not listed. So if there are a lot of false negatives, that would mean the trope is underused.

edited 24th Mar '12 7:18:43 PM by troacctid

Well it's in 740 articles and it has been an above average performer for a while and I believe in the old thread it was at about half that (and at that time that was a very significant amount). That's what the usage count is for- to check for underuse-and by that standard, it's doing fine.

Just because it isn't being misused doesn't mean it doesn't warrant a rename.

As I said, FoRKS are Friends of Really Kool sobriquet, and this name doesnt seem Really Kool.

I take back what I said about siding with SPOON. Really, there shouldn't be any faction that explicitly opposes this rename. Even PLATTER and especially KNIVES shouldn't.

I recommend we start a crowner.

edited 28th Mar '12 5:46:30 AM by TropeEater

If it isn't being misused, then why should it be renamed? No misuse is a sign that it's not confusing.

Please stop referring to what those factions would do. They are not relevant to TRS actions and are Just for Fun pages.

Alright, without all that: I'm against most renames, but if this trope is being used where it shouldn't be and not used where it should on the same page, it suggests the name misled at least a few people.

I think the problem here is linguistic drift.

I heard the term "bottle fairy" before I ever came to TV Tropes, and before the anime of the same name came out. It was established before the site came into being - arising from absinthe being nicknamed "the green fairy," then ascribing the "fairy" idea to alcohol (and women who drink it) more generally.

The problem, though, is that there's a very good argument that the term has become disestablished. I think it hasn't been used for that regularly outside of this site in a good, long while. It's similar to why we wouldn't use "The Nimrod" to refer to an incredible hunter for a trope name, despite the fact that it would have been a valid reference that many people got for centuries.

Taking the long view, it wouldn't surprise me if, presuming it lasts that long, many completely obvious trope names to us will be renamed a century or two in the future, because even something as basic as Distressed Damsel might not be understood to our descendants. It's just the way language evolves.

Anyhow, I support the rename.

Meh, I guess I support the rename even though I liked this trope title for some reason. Go ahead with the crowner? Misuse for other tropes has been shown.

There's another problem with the name. The character doesn't even have to drink a lot, or at all.

From the description:

[...]

(Emphasis mine.)

So the "bottle" part seems even more unintuitive. Or we have a case of definition drift in the examples where the trope hasn't kept up.

In any case, I support renaming.

edited 28th Mar '12 9:19:31 AM by Antheia

Okay, how do I add a new crowner now? Whenever I go there it just shows the old one.

Call it Bottle Fairy 2.

Hm. We probably also need to tighten the definition a little, if right now it basically means "any female charcter who does wacky shit"

The "often" is just one word, and Drunk on Milk is meant to evoke actual drunkenness, meaning that the trope of "cheerful girl who likes alcohol" is in mind in those examples whether the character is drunk or not.