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 76 shimaspawn, Mon, 19th Mar '12 7:10:18 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Those aren't bad write ups. Throw them into Sandbox.No Nudity Taboo and Sandbox.Casual Nudity. That way we can hash them out more there. It's easier to tweak in a sandbox.

edited 19th Mar '12 7:10:39 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
They are thus placed! I had no idea that would work, glad it does.

Image ideas (for Casual Nudity):

Still looking for better examples that are grandma-friendly. Unfortunately the bottom 3 panels of this strip (where the second image comes from) are just too big. Perhaps if we stacked them vertically instead of horizontally?

edited 19th Mar '12 8:06:47 PM by KiTA

[up]This is TRS, not Image Pickin'.

Wait, so the idea is we're replacing this trope with No Nudity Taboo?

Does anyone else think there should be a "Fanservice Girl who doesn't realize she's providing fanservice" trope, probably using this name? That's what I always thought this trope was, and it seems like that's how others are using it too.

[up][up] True, but we're discussing splitting the trope, and said split isn't finalized yet. I suppose I can just save the links for now and bring it up once the trope is split.

Edit:

[up] I'm fairly certain we already have a trope for clueless fanservice characters, although now that I go to look, I'm not quite finding it. Hm.

edited 19th Mar '12 8:16:38 PM by KiTA

Cure Candy
[up][up] That is the way the trope is used..

I am going to stand by my plan on the last page... That is really what these tropes should be and really that is the way they are used.
Except that's not aligned with more than half of the examples on the page, nor the page description.

 84 shimaspawn, Mon, 19th Mar '12 8:22:47 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
It is the way that the wicks are using it though and even links form other tropes. It's what most tropers seem to think this page is. The examples on the page just get cleaned more than the wicks.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Do we honestly not have a trope like Innocent Innuendo, only for fanservice? Maybe we should re-purpose Innocent Fanservice Girl as that trope (or launch Innocent Fanservice / Oblivious Fanservice) as well?

edited 19th Mar '12 8:52:10 PM by KiTA

 86 shimaspawn, Mon, 19th Mar '12 8:55:35 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
The trope that everyone uses for that is Innocent Fanservice Girl because it sounds like it is that trope. I'm all right with a Trope Transplant for No Nudity Taboo and letting people use this trope for what they think it is. It's obviously a trope we need.

edited 19th Mar '12 8:56:35 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
even older skool
But what is the difference exactly?

"Character is naked and has no idea why that's inappropriate or unusual"

"Character provides fanservice without realizing it"

It seems to be the same basic character trait expressing itself in different ways.

Well, one has examples like this:

  • The French graphic novel Pyrénée, a take on The Jungle Book with a young French girl growing in the Pyrénées mountains instead of a young boy in the jungle. Stranded away from civilization and raised by a sentient bear since before she could walk, she has no body shame, and it's on more or less every page (but definitely not sexual). Actually does come up — she has to survive a winter without her Bear friend, so her Eagle friend shows her what a fur coat and boots are (which she gets rid of the second she can).

Which is one, but certainly not the other.

 89 shimaspawn, Mon, 19th Mar '12 11:20:35 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Also, you can have nudity without fanservice, as in the above example.

You can also have fanservice where the characters never get naked and seem ashamed of nudity, but not whatever actually is providing fanservice.

Never mind that it makes no sense to lump a trope that's largely children, characters Raised by Wolves, Aliens, or other characters portrayed in a nonsexual way in a work in with a trope entirely about characters being portrayed sexually in a work.

edited 19th Mar '12 11:23:06 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
It's important to note at this point we're not working on renaming Innocent Fanservice Girl. We're working on moving the examples of No Nudity Taboo out, and leaving the characters who combine Fanservice with Obliviousness.

 91 shimaspawn, Mon, 19th Mar '12 11:28:24 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
And we do realise that there's overlap, but one isn't a subtrope of the other.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
So I guess we should try to agree on Innocent Fanservice Girl 's new definiton?

Yeah, unless there's disagreement with moving No Nudity Taboo out.

even older skool
I understand, then. What you're saying is that the focus of the tropes and thus the distinction between them is in how they're used rather than the character traits that create them. Put that way it seems better than the current definitions, which focus on the character. They're called trope pages for a reason, after all. tongue

[up]That's a good way of putting it.

I did a really small, really informal wick check, just to try to give an idea of how people are using it. might help us pick a new definition.

Providing fanservice without noticing it (but she would care if she did notice): 3
Providing fanservice only because she's being forced, or because of a wardrobe malfunction: 5
Understands that she's providing fanservice, but doesn't care: 11
Doesn't even understand what "fanservice" means: 13

So 3/4 of the use is some variant of "no nudity taboo, " and the rest is something that seems like it would fit the name "innocent fanservice girl, " but doesn't.

edited 20th Mar '12 12:15:56 AM by abk0100

[up][up] Sorta. Originally the trope Innocent Fanservice Girl was about a character (usually a girl) who was innocently walking around nude, which was mostly for fanservice — although admittedly this required us making assumptions about the creator's intentions, which is a no-go nowadays.

However, most of the examples in pages apparently fall under the "girl is innocently providing fanservice (both in universe and for the viewer)" which is decidedly different — for example, you have instances where Innocent Fanservice Girl is being used to describe someone who is unaware that their large breasts are turning men around them on.

The problem really starts to shine when you have things like The Jungle Book or Pyrénée mixed in with examples such as Amuro Ninagawa ("Stark Naked Swimming Club: Umisho") or Nanako (Nanakoish Days).

The former two are fairly innocent takes on Feral Children who never learned about clothing, involving characters who are 8-12 years old. Their nudity is nonsexual in the extreme, and would honestly fit in with any children's books if not for the United States having lost their collective minds a few decades back. (Pyrénée is sold throughout Europe, but would be illegal child pornography in the US.)

The latter are two softcore near-pornographic comics about a character who has no qualms about walking around naked — but is extremely attractive and this is played up as such — with the latter having the added bonus of having an extremely oversexed main male lead also trying to peep on her (with some success) doing lewd things. The nudity in both is sexualized and the fanservice is blatant.

I wasn't (and honestly still aren't entirely) keen on the idea of a rename, and there was a previous discussion about a rename (which was shot down in flames), but if the trope is being muddled to that extent, well.

I think a migration of the honestly innocent examples of No Nudity Taboo is the best compromise, now that the "misuse" of the trope in other pages has come to light.

Now here's the part that makes my head hurt a bit — Amuro Ninagawa, the Umisho girl? She fits on both pages. But that makes sense, I suppose.

Cure Candy
Now that I think about it with that wick check we should divide it up like this.

edited 20th Mar '12 1:59:55 AM by Raso

 98 shimaspawn, Tue, 20th Mar '12 8:20:23 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
It's ok if a character fits both tropes. Overlap isn't a bad thing.

But there's also a lot of characters who innocently provide fanservice because they don't seem to notice that they're not wearing enough, but that doesn't mean they would ever go naked in front of anyone. That's not a No Nudity Taboo. That's an "I'm not bothered by skimpy clothing as long as everything important is covered."

[up] I'm ok with that distinction, but No Nudity Taboo still doesn't belong merged into any of those.

edited 20th Mar '12 8:21:54 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
I was going to start working on Sandbox.Innocent Fanservice Girl, but...

How is the proposed new definition (character inadvertently is a source of Hello, Nurse! and Fanservice, remains unaware of it) different from I Didnt Mean to Turn You On (character inadvertently is a source of Hello, Nurse!, remains unaware of it)?

Edit: I suppose differs from I Didnt Mean to Turn You On in that an Innocent Fanservice Girl is not obliviously doing a specific thing to a specific character to inflame a hidden love interest, they are obliviously doing things that nearly anyone would find distracting and arousing.

edited 21st Mar '12 4:19:29 PM by KiTA

 100 feotakahari, Mon, 26th Mar '12 12:48:54 PM from Looking out at the city
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
Bumping. How's this going? I sort of got lost a few pages ago.

In reference to the last post, I'm not sure we have much of a distinction between this and I Didnt Mean to Turn You On. I figured that the latter would see misuse, so we could redefine it, but I didn't find any misuse in a small-scale random wick check. (More specifically, I had assumed that people would use it for when a character realized and apologized for turning someone else on.)

edited 26th Mar '12 12:49:14 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
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