Avengers Vs X-Men

The Avengers can't do something now because the Avengers never had the ability to do something themselves. This isn't a problem that can be solved with Iron Man flying in and shooting everyone. Cap's ability to do something resided in the government and press media.

As it stands, it can't be proven that Jake's death happened prior to the riot. It's Logan's word against the prison's, and Logan is a mutant. Even if Cap vouches for him, he's a mutant. The media's already against him on that alone; he would just be made to look like one mutant stepping forward to defend another, and further turn what should be the issue of Jake's murder into "Mutants are uncontrollable beasts that openly flaunt our laws. Look how quickly one mutant jumps to defend another from JUSTICE, even as their reckless behavior kills their own kind, as was the case with poor Jake."

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I meant it is hard to convince the readers that Havok is the leader if they keep him in the same book as Captain. I was agreeing with you. I haven't read the preview, though. However, I have to say it is quite weird to have Alex actually meaning to impose himself over Cap after he just failed doing to same over Madrox.

I mean, the dude couldn't beat Madrox in a "leadership duel" but now he can face Captain America? How the hell does that work?

Yeah, I agree the Avengers can't do anything about that in that way. I was just questioning how the "now" was different from the "before". I don't see the situation would be any different, regardless of Scott's scape.

It is not about the media. It is about the actual system. If a testimony of an Avenger, with the backup of Cap, can't convince the lynching to be investigated, then the whole thing would be swiped to below the rug regardless.

Furthermore, hours passed between Jake's death and the jailbreak. His death should have been reported or registered somewhere already.

edited 15th Nov '12 7:35:14 PM by Heatth

It could be the situations. X-Factor Alex was freshly back from space, and Madrox and the rest of the team were like family. It's understandable that he would step aside. Cap approached Alex and asked him to lead, plus, when Alex pulled rank on him, they were in a situation involving Alex's family. He was pissed.

Edit: I would like to see Cap in a follower role more often. He would be more likable if he weren't giving orders all the time.

edited 15th Nov '12 7:34:52 PM by gregyo

Jake's death was always going to be covered up. No one was ever going to be punished for it. Maybe a slap on the wrist to someone, but nothing serious. It wasn't going to get heavy media coverage, it wasn't going to get the media fired up. None of that. There was never going to be any action resulting from it, and Scott knew it. I think that's why he broke out. He just decided, "Fuck this bullshit."

edited 15th Nov '12 7:35:14 PM by Tiamatty

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.

I guess. It need to be very well written to make it work. Havok has a story of being overshadowed, after all. This is, like, the premise of his character. The fact he have been recently overshadowed by a much "lamer" leader*

than usual just recently will weight against him in the readers view, I think. The fact they are keeping him in the sidelines of the covers naturally only make the whole thing harder to swallow.

What does Ca XF stands for, btw? I thought their book was UA(Uncanny Avengers).

edited 15th Nov '12 7:42:04 PM by Heatth

Cable and X-Force. The UA will actually be the opposition in that book.

Huh, interesting. Didn't know about that. What is this book about, anyway. Aside Cable playing the anti-hero, I mean?

Cable, Colossus, and some other more morally-gray X-people (including a triumphantly-returning Forge, having literally fixed his own Character Derailment with his super-fixing powers) are found near the dead body of a major anti-mutant lobbyist. Manhunt ensues.

edited 15th Nov '12 7:47:05 PM by HamburgerTime

The Uncanny Avengers will very much be Inspector Javert in the book. I think it looks awesome. The art is great.

Cool. I just looked up and it is this Hopeless guy again, isn't it? I hope he is good with characterization. I am looking forward to seeing Colossus after everything.

But, between this and Avengers Arena, I am worried about his style. I don't mind some survival and blood, but I rather like more character focus myself. They are not mutually exclusive, but they attract different people, usually, so they are not frequently together.

edited 15th Nov '12 8:00:02 PM by Heatth

Overall, NOW! is getting a very, very good reception (seriously, the CBR X-Boards like something written by Bendis), but yeah, Arena seems to be the one book that people are overall dreading. Though I'll admit that if everything we've been hearing about it is absolutely literal (which I doubt), Superior Spider-Man also sounds kind of easy to screw up.

I'm with you. I like character-focused stories. If Arena is like Battle Royale (switching POV) it will have lots of character work. If it has a main protagonist (Reptil, X-23, or Nico) like Hunger Games, it won't.

I'm more excited about Cable's book, though.

edited 15th Nov '12 8:03:12 PM by gregyo

Hopeless seems to be a pretty good character writer. His Legion of Monsters mini was mostly just silly fun, but still had some decent characterization in it. His X-Men Season One had very good characterization. So I'm expecting the writing to be good. It's just the premise of Arena that I disagree with, because it further cements the view of teenage characters as C-List Fodder. Even if he doesn't kill any of the existing teen characters, it's still perpetuating that idea.

I will say that I'm expecting it to be a well-written book, though. I'm thinking there probably won't be a single viewpoint character, and it looks like it'll be more about how the characters react to the situation they find themselves in than the situation itself. And Hopeless himself, by all indications, is a very nice man. A guy on the CBR Avengers boards - who happens to be a huge Academy fan - was very upset about Arena, and ended up stating his opinion to Hopeless (politely). Hopeless responded very nicely, acknowledged that it probably wouldn't be for everyone, and so on. The guy who complained was legitimately impressed by Hopeless's response.

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Hah, my thoughts exactly. Battle Royale is an excellent example of how to mix lots of gore with characterization, which shows Avengers Arena can be good. That is the exception, not the rule, I believe.

I am interested in Cable's book as well. but between a bunch of 90s anti-heroes and Avengers Arena, I think you can understand why I am worried.

I can see why. I've just read the Marvel Now Wolverine and The X-Men and I actually find it decent! Sure, the last pages were pathetic*

, but the main story was okay. Not particularly great, but not painful to read either*

partially because the wackyness was tone down, I guess

. I find hard to believe it is still the same writer. There must be some magic in that Marvel Now seal, or something.

As for Bendis, what else is he writing again? I've read All New, which is quite good, but I believe he was doing other two books as well? Which one are you talking about?

That are some great news! I admit I wouldn't have thought something called "Legion of Monsters" could possible have good characterization but, I guess I was wrong.

edited 15th Nov '12 8:14:21 PM by Heatth

It was All-New. Before it came out, they were all moaning about how Bendis would disregard Gillen like he did Johns and Scott would be evil and... then none of that happened and they were like "Huh. Okay."

He's doing Guardians of the Galaxy and Uncanny X-men. Marvel NOW! is working on me. I've never been into cosmic Marvel, but I am going to read Guardians.

Well, Legion of Monsters didn't have great characterization, but it was OK. It was an enjoyable book, for what it was. It was mostly just fun, though. The X-Men Season One had solid characterization, though.

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Oh, on NOW! books that might be bad, I forgot to say I don't have very high hopes for Savage Wolverine, either, since it seems to be pretty much a vanity project for Frank Cho; he's doing both the writing and the art, and he really likes Wolverine and Shanna so I think this runs a risk of being essentially a published Mary Sue story.

Also Ultron War, yo◊. That's binary code for "Age of Ultron."

Huh. There's been a lot of lead-up to a big Ultron conflict over the last year or two, but honestly, I thought they'd forgotten that thread.

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I really hope it's the same thing as the Reckoning War. That was going to be huge, but then it just disappeared. And our lone glimpse of the guy who started the war did look like Ultron.

We've been over this, Mutants aren't hated and feared because of racism, they're hated because the shoot fucking lasers out there face. Comparing them to irl races such as Blacks and Asian beyond logistical syncrnsims is a fallacy because the reasons why they are oppressed is fundamentally different. The Pretty White People factor is more of less a common trend in all media which values beauty and racial majorities, and the X-Men are probably one of the most diverse teams anyway. Possibly annoyingly so back in the day.

edited 20th Nov '12 9:15:25 AM by HyperAlbion

Casual talk is a debate you have to win.

Punches.

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But that doesn't explain why people who can shoot lasers/punches out of their face after falling into a vat of toxic waste aren't hated. Mutants are hated because baselines fear that they're being "replaced."

"the X-Men are probably one of the most diverse teams anyway. Possibly annoyingly so back in the day."

Annoyingly so? How do you figure? None of them came across as tokens. They all felt like fleshed-out characters with real personalities. The cultures they come from were important to them, but the same is true of most people in the real world, and they never felt like stereotypes. The fact that the X-Men became Marvel's biggest franchise on the backs of such a diverse cast is one of the best things about them. And it's part of what makes Uncanny Avengers so disappointing. A full half of the starting cast is blond-haired, blue-eyed white men, and the full cast will include, out of nine characters, two who could arguably be considered minorities. That's tokenism.

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Yes it does. One is a natural accident, and/or the by product of design (i.e. Tony Stark) the other is an actual race that not only is outbreeding you, but will eventually come to surpass you. It's the difference between someone saying "Europeans took over the world because of guns, germs and steel" and "Europeans took over the world because they were white." Imagine if everything Adolf Hitler, Charles Lynch and H.P. Lovecraft said was true, and you were on the loosing end. I'd make some Sentinels in a heartbeat, and I'm sure you would too.

Well if it's any consolation, Hickman's Avengers cast is a lot more diverse. Though you sound like one of those people who wont read something if it doesn't fit some sort of minority quota. More power to you, though I disagree with your stance.

edited 20th Nov '12 11:36:28 AM by HyperAlbion

Casual talk is a debate you have to win.