Badass tropes - now on: Action Girl

Huh? The trope does not need an In-Universe qualifier.

And that's why I can't support it until we reach an actual consensus on a firm, tropeworthy definition, which is a step we seem to have skipped. Every time I ask for clarification and someone gives it, someone else chimes in with an "actually..."

First of all, there was plenty of time for someone to chime in before the crowner was hooked. No one did. Therefore, their objections now carry less weight.

Second, there is no in-universe qualifier in the crowner. This is a result of no one bringing it up before the crowner was hooked. Therefore, it is irrelevant. I could make an argument for or against the qualifier but the fact that no one thought to bring it up makes both of them irrelevant. What gets voted on in the crowner is what gets used. Changing it afterward is not legitimate. At most, it can be an additional element, perhaps a lampshade hanging. It is not required.

Frankly, I'm surprised this has become such an issue.

Honestly, it's not really a new thing - acrobox has been pretty consistent about trying to push this 'more orderly' definition of tropes for a while.

edited 19th May '17 2:55:31 PM by nrjxll

well then lets just go with the literal text of the crowner that literally has 12 positive votes:

Pretty Princess Powerhouse - Looks like a delicate princess but fights better than the people who serve her (Renamed and cleaned up Badass Princess)

no more no less

Requirements:

• Looks delicate
• Is a princess
• Fights better than the people who are in her service

edited 19th May '17 11:41:54 PM by acrobox

I'm glad we settled that issue. Now how about Warrior Noble? It has a 1.83:1 ratio and 17 total votes, which makes for 5 positive votes. Shall we wait for it to hit 2:1 or move forward with it as well?

The main reason I haven't upvoted Warrior Noble is that I'm not entirely sure why, instead of just being a gender-neutral Warrior Prince like was discussed, it appears to have dropped the royalty aspect entirely. I think that does make a meaningful distinction.

I still think they should be gendered counterparts and stay Warrior Prince and Warrior Princess.

Royalty, yes, should be a requirement.

On the powerhouse trope I would include The Ojou and such that are treated like a princess.

edited 20th May '17 5:02:17 PM by Memers

I think the "nobility" part of the definition does imply royalty too, but I can understand if the wording confuses people.

Being a noble and royalty are two different things. The latter just means you are higher in social standing than the common people, which is a very VERY broad trope. As well as there are tons of ranks of the nobility in the real world and fiction.

The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel goes into great detail about it, they make a huge distinction between actual royalty and nobility especially when it comes to fighting. The MC is just son of a baron which is light years different than either Prince Olivert or Princess Alfin, true royalty and in line for the throne, but is considered a member of the nobility.

And its the same way in real life, some random noble fighting is way different than say Prince Harry joining the army and serving in Afghanistan. An army he may technically be the 'head of' some day, That element in fiction is a big deal for a Warrior Prince, you are part of an army that some day you might/will be the head of.

If we make Warrior Noble it would be different than Warrior Prince or Warrior Princess.

edited 20th May '17 5:33:04 PM by Memers

It's also a common part of feudal systems that one of the duties a noble owes their feudal overlord is to fight for them when it's needed. That doesn't mean the heir to the throne is going to fight.

There that that too. as well as some people are sometimes granted nobility because of their abilities in combat in service of their country. It isn't something you are always just born into.

In history that is how most titles were granted especially in China and Japan, often posthumously in a Posthumous Name. IE Zhou Yun of Dynasty Warriors fame was named Marquis Shunping after he died, thus a member of the nobility.

edited 20th May '17 5:57:29 PM by Memers

...Noble is just a gender neutral term. It could be Warrior Royal or Warrior Princess with a redirect to Warrior Prince.

Also okay with The Ojou or looking/being treated as a royalty counting without actually being royalty for powerhouse, and potentially other things.

edited 20th May '17 6:30:37 PM by acrobox

I do think Warrior Noble could work for those people granted their nobility via being a warrior or born into Warrior Noble Families and continue or are forced to continue the warrior tradition.

Something like Mueller Vander in The Legend Of Heroes Trails In The Sky he is from a noble family who serves the royal family, from the moment he was born he was groomed to do this. He also has the rank of Major in the military.

Also everyone in the Samurai class in Japan historical works would be this.

Also I still disagree with merging, a Warrior Prince and a Warrior Princess are quite different especially from a Doylist Perspective as well as inside works. There might be those few subversions and icons like Xena that are not but those are notably constructed and invoked to be that.

edited 20th May '17 7:07:30 PM by Memers

That's fine, but your disagreement of Princesses and Princes being treated differently we talked about at length and is better covered by Right To Fight, or something similar = princesses who fight are seen as different in cultures In-Universe or in Real Life who have explicit laws, or cultural norms that limit or outright prohibit princesses from fighting.

Where that doesnt have an impact on the story and princesses are able to fight without getting the side eye is better covered by a gender neutral Warrior Prince.

As you get more into a doylist perspective you're getting closer to Audience Reaction which is by its nature messier to trope (leading to clean up threads like this one). YMMV especially comes into play as more and more fantasy stories, especially in mainstream comics, games, cartoons and franchises based on them feature princesses fighting without sexist issues. Everything Is Better With Princesses still hold over quite a bit, and Action Girls by and large are more common than ever.

edited 20th May '17 7:52:11 PM by acrobox

This is a good point. We don't want these tropes going YMMV. "X is badass because he did this crowning moment of awesome thing" is the whole reason we're all here in this thread, after all.

I agree that there is a difference between a prince serving in the army and a lesser noble doing likewise. However, is the difference big enough for a hard split? I think a soft one would be more appropriate and/or notes about the differences within the trope itself. We must remember that Tropes Are Flexible.

Also, the Warrior Noble crowner option has reached a 2:1 ratio with 18 total votes. We can quibble over the name but the essence of the option was set in stone when the crowner started.

It would very much be hard split, the amount of suckup that people do to their future King is staggering. They are also being groomed for being King thus will be either a captain in charge or under the tutelage of an experienced mentor / general often appointed or trusted by the king.

A Warrior Noble gets absolutely none of that, they might get a higher spot in an army when joining and such but generally they are just at most an Elite Mook style person and still tend to be bound on merit.

If you wanna YKTTW that as maybe a related trope to Men Are the Expendable Gender then sure but that does not take away from the fact that its part of Warrior Princess stereotype, they just have to deal with that in and outside universe which is something that a Warrior Prince does not as they tend to be tied to Prince Charming and Rescue The Princess stereotypes. That's both of theirs stories and stereotypes, breaking those stereotypes as a warrior in either direction are notable.

edited 24th May '17 7:51:29 PM by Memers

I agree with you in stories that focus on military activities and court life. However, that is only a small selection of fiction. Let's take a classic JRPG (hardly a niche or obscure area) with a Ragtag Bunch of Misfits and/or Hitchhiker Heroes traveling all over the place to fight some God of Evil. Do you think the other heroes or the story itself will care that he's a prince/duke/baron etc.? No. That will only happen when the plot requires it for some event. Why? Because they're all the same to the commoners, aliens, talking animals, etc. He's just some Blue Blood traveling with them or "our friend, Bob" instead of "His Highness the Prince Valiant". Granted, he's likely to be a prince for the Rule of Cool but I don't see a difference in his title in this case.

Let me ask you this: let's say we had a story that involved a prince, a duke, a marquis, a baron, and a knight who had the address of "Sir Bob of Tropealot" but no other title. What tropes do these characters go into?

Very much so I can think of a crap ton of works that make huge distinctions between nobles and actual royalty, even dating back to Lord Of The Rings with the noble Boramir and the actual prince Aragorn.

Every work I can think of, especially in Japanese works, treat actual royalty with far more reverence than any noble. It is literally a whole other class of standing. Final Fantasy IX Final Fantasy XII, The Legend Of Heroes Trails Of Cold Steel, Tales Of Graces, Record Of Lodoss War etc

edited 26th May '17 12:41:15 AM by Memers

You avoided my question. In fact, you avoided both of them.

I understand that it is a difference in class. What I'm asking is how that difference is treated outside of works that deal specifically with it. I find your citing of Final Fantasy IX to be suspicious. There is no large cast of nobles in order to make distinctions between ranks. There is no plot or narration difference between Brahne, who is a queen, and Cid, whose title is "regent". Both are treated as rulers of a city.

Please answer my questions.

The title matters usually because in the work because the responsibility is different a Prince or Princess will be responsible for a kingdom or group of kingdoms (an empire), A noble is absolutely nothing compared to them. At most they might be an heir to a town or something.

And I used IX cause there are actually a lot of nobles in the game, especially in Alexandria and Treno who are just so far below the actual royalty and all are in service of said royalty.

Also name some works where nobility is like what you said? I can't think of any.

Works like Tales Of Graces the MC is the son of a baron, thus a noble and set to inherit the control of a town and a region of the kingdom, joins the military as a knight in the service to the Warrior Prince, later King, who is solidly at the head of the army after killing his uncle. That is a Warrior Noble.

Being a son of a Baron does not qualify him for prince tropes like Princeling Rivalry despite the fact he is a textbook case of what is on the page with his brother except for not actually of the prince rank, they are just sons of a baron, I asked on this.

edited 26th May '17 11:40:12 AM by Memers

I don't see anyone directly responding to you, but for purposes of the trope (siblings, successions, rivalry, sabotage) i'd say it counts even if they aren't literally princes.

Especially considering I was literally the one who YKTTW'd, and launched the trope Princeling Rivalry i an say it was the intention of the trope at launch that the story elements be fulfilled rather than titles. I could see the trope working even if it was a CEO who had two sons who could potentially inherit the company in a modern day setting. Like say in Empire

edited 27th May '17 12:55:43 PM by acrobox

[up ]I mentioned IX because it is an example. All the "nobles" you refer to in Alexandria and Treno are nameless NPCs that can be avoided unless one wants flavor text. They're part of the scenery. The only one with a noble title among the playable characters is Garnet/Dagger. Other named and important characters are the queen and regent that I mentioned.

You want another example? How about Tales of The Abyss? Natalia is a princess and Luke is a duke but the purposes of the story, the distinction is not important. What's important is that Luke is related to the king; his precise title as a noble is irrelevant. Natalia being the king's daughter is far more important to the story than the title that a king's daughter has. There's also Guy who is secretly a noble but no attention it paid to his title. It is being a noble from that country, and particularly that region, that is important. I think it was "Count" but would it have mattered if he were a baron or a marquis? No. The difference between "king" and "emperor" is also nill.

Another example: The Tortall Verse stories by Tamora Pierce. There are a lot of nobles and lots of diversity in their titles. Lots of these nobles become warriors. True, Prince Jonathon has a big role in his story but that's more due to his adventurous personality than his title. Alanna's title is much lower in the hierarchy but does that matter for her or her brother? The story treats them as "nobles" and their exact rank is unimportant. This comes up again in Kel's series. The prince in her generation has less bearing on the plot and little attention is brought to precise ranks among the nobles. I recall one line about how one flavor-text -knight "looked at her like she were a beetle" but that had more to do with the amount of time her entire family tree had been noble rather than her rank. Noble ranks are less important for Diane because she is not directly part of that crowd so her stories don't place importance on distinctions.

You see this vast gulf between royalty and nobles and that may be the case, but I'd say the more meaningful distinction is between royals/nobles and commoners. Personally, I don't think there is a tropable difference between Warrior Prince and Warrior Noble. "sucking up to social superiors" happens at all levels, the prince and other royals just have a wider pool of people sucking up to them. "protecting the important heir to the title/property" likewise happens at many levels, the prince is just a higher scale of both. In other words, The Same But More Specific.

I say all this because it is kinda fun to devise an argument against someone who is passionate in their subject. The crowner for Warrior Noble has surpassed the 2:1 ratio. It's been there for a while now.

One question: Why Pretty Princess Powerhouse and not Powerhouse Princess, Bruiser Princess or Princess Bruiser?

edited 31st May '17 12:50:06 PM by MarqFJA

I'm pretty sure that's a placeholder title, with the actual name to be hashed out later.