A problem with determining what counts: One Hit Point Wonder

This trope seems pretty easy to understand at first. "Character who dies in one hit." Pretty simple concept.

The problem lies in the second paragraph.

The part that I bolded leaves too much room conjecture and interpretation as to what qualifies as an example. Last night I had a long PM conversation with Dragon Quest Z over whether or not Super Mario Bros counted as an example. I insisted that it wasn't, since a big part of those games is collecting mushrooms and other things which boost the amount of hits he takes before dying. He insisted that it was, his reasoning being that mushrooms and whatnot counted as "shields" and that just the fact that he starts the game without the extra hits means that he counts.

The description does not clarify just how much flexibility is allowed in the examples here. I personally think that the idea of allowing all of this leeway for "extra hits" and "powerups", especially in a game series where they are pretty much omnipresent, sort of loses the meaning of the whole "die in one hit" aspect, but I would like more feedback on this. What counts, what doesn't, and how can we fix the description to clarify this?

edited 3rd Jan '12 12:52:57 PM by MyTimingIsOff

I also think that a One-Hit-Point Wonder should be determined by the way it is without power ups, so Mario would fit. Sonic for example would the same, though he can survive quite more easily because he can grab the rings again.

Maybe we should explain that most times power ups work as shields too.

There'll probably always be a few games that are hard to classify here.

That said, the default state for Mario is to die in one hit, so he should qualify. If he picks up, say, an invincibility star or a mushroom, then he temporarily no longer dies in one hit, but that doesn't change his default state. Same thing for Sonic.

This is different in the second Super Mario Bros game, where he explicitly gets a life meter.

You could arguably make a sub-trope for games where you always die in one hit, no matter what powerups or other stuff you collect, but I believe those games to be pretty rare.

The basic nature of the trope is that injury is something your character is meant to avoid entirely, rather than the alternative of being a matter of endurance and hoping you win before you run out of HP (and/or HP-restoring utility). The fact that there can be any number of get-out-jail-free cards or temporary buffers does nothing to change the basic trope.

edited 3rd Jan '12 2:50:30 PM by Clarste

Seconded.

There are other edge cases too, as per the last paragraph:

Taking a Glass Cannon, Fragile Speedster, and/or Squishy Wizard build to extremes can frequently lead to a character effectively being this, even if they have more than one Hit Point on paper.

Consider, for instance, a character with 10 hp. In something like [[Tabletop Game/Pokemon Pokemon trading card game]], where all damage is in multiples of 10, this would be a literal example. In some varieties of D&D, on the other hand, 10 hp is pretty high compared to your average low-level character or NPC. Even more complicated are situations like Odin Sphere on hero mode, where the player characters start with their usual maximum hp but are unable to increase it by any means, and slowly become more fragile as the enemies start to hit harder. But even some of the final bosses have attacks (such as King Gallon's shower of bones) that can't quite kill in one hit.

edited 3rd Jan '12 11:24:43 PM by EnragedFilia

That makes sense as well.

I think we can safely say Tropes Are Flexible, and [1] is a good summation of the spirit of the trope here.

edited 3rd Jan '12 11:35:33 PM by troacctid

OK, here's a question. What if the character starts off with these powerups? For example, Super Mario 3 D Land has the same powerup/powerdown system as most of the classic games, but he starts off each life in his big form instead of his small form like the classic games. So, barring the collection of anymore powerups, he effectively dies in two hits, not one. Another example would be Ardy Lightfoot, where the main character starts off with this little blue blob creature that he can use as an attack. It disappears if he takes a hit, but he can pick up more. If he takes a hit without one, he dies.

edited 4th Jan '12 11:19:00 AM by MyTimingIsOff

I don't think one hit more truly affects the trope, at least not when we're talking about Mario. As it was said before the trope is a bit more than just getting K.O.ed in one hit. Damage should be completely avoided, and you mustn't rely on reaching the goal alive before your life bar drops to zero. Having a shield in the beginning doesn't truly destroy the trope. Most games give you a shield or power up pretty early in the levels anyway.

edited 4th Jan '12 11:20:55 AM by DrMcNinja

Uh, no. "Dying in one hit" is exactly what the trope is. And if a character is taking two hits before dying, they don't count.

The default status of Mario is dying with one hit. If you can get/lose the power up then it's a One-Hit-Point Wonder.

If you lose the "big" status you can get it back with a power up. Starting with it doesn't make your point valid.

I think you're interpreting the trope a little too broadly.

Other Mario games would apply because he starts of with one hit point.

If he started out with two hit points, than I don't see how it would apply.

It applies because the "big" status is a power up. If you lose it you lose the advantages that come with it, that are more than just a free hit point.

Except it doesn't apply. If more than one hit point is a character's default state, they are not this trope. Period.

That point is moot, because as I said most times in videogames where this trope applies you can get a Power-Up almost as soon as you start the level, so having it in the beginning isn't something that important. It's a power up, as it lets you destroy blocks, it's NOT just a free hit.

edited 4th Jan '12 12:20:04 PM by DrMcNinja

My point is not moot. Yours is. The trope is One-Hit-Point Wonder, not One Hit Point Wonder Except Not Really Since The Character Actually Has Two Hit Points But If He Loses One He Needs What Counts As A Powerup To Get It Back.

Trying to Appeal to Ridicule is not going to convince anyone, you know it, right?

If a character starts out with 2 hit points, that is not a moot point.

It dosen't matter what previous games where like, it doesn't apply in this one.

Even I accepted that as valid (as I see it it's still the same trope, and I already explained why) what would that mean? The trope still says "Common variations may give a shield or form of protection which, not surprisingly, disappears in one hit". Doesn't mention a thing about not being valid if it comes by default, so the examples would still fit.

And I'd like more opinions than just the three of us for this matter.

edited 4th Jan '12 1:13:23 PM by DrMcNinja

The description does not disambiguate what counts as a "shield" and what counts as "more than one hit point". That's the problem.

Is the part "or form of protection" not clear enough then? What happens is that in the Mario games that form of protection overlaps with a Power-Up. In my opinion Mario is default when he doesn't get additional powers. That means Mario is getting from the start powers he shouldn't normally have, and it's supposed that you can beat the game without them. If the game became Unwinnable when you lose those powers and you can't find a way to recover them then you would be right and Super Mario 3 D Land wouldn't use the One-Hit-Point Wonder trope.

But that would be pretty much stupid. I can't imagine a typical Mario game (the sidescrolling ones I mean) where you can't go past the level unless you had a Power-Up. That would be stupid and a major mistake from Nintendo. Having an Unwinnable by Design game would hit pretty hard.

edited 4th Jan '12 1:33:09 PM by DrMcNinja

I think it's valid to say, qualified-like, "Without his mushroom, Mario is a One-Hit-Point Wonder," or "In his smaller form, Mario is a One-Hit-Point Wonder."

edited 4th Jan '12 1:38:15 PM by troacctid

If the sheild can come by default, then there isn't anyway to distinguish this from Hit Points.

You can't stack shields indefinitely, you can have most times one, two tops. I've never seen three of them. Also in games where there are hit points you usually lose them by a greater amount any time you're hit, and it depends on the attack that hits you, it's not the same getting hit by some Mooks than the Final Boss. In this case the kind of attack doesn't matter, you lose the shield the same no matter what hit you. Even field hazards, though those are potentially worse, as there are times where they bypass your shields.

edited 4th Jan '12 1:59:52 PM by DrMcNinja