Clean-up Needed: SNK Boss

" Please do tell why That One Boss and SNK Boss are interchangeable after reading my argument or even reading the two page descriptions themselves."

But that's my point; the examples are not based on the description. The examples are based on "this boss is really powerful". It doesn't help that one name is dialogue and the other is obscure. You could grab any example from one trope and paste it on the other, and you'd only know by checking the history.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Okay, from the examples, the first list of examples no less.

You wouldn't see those on That One Boss, as it is strictly a you mileage may vary page and does not accept final bosses. So there would be nothing to invert or subvert.

That said, if we've established that the pages are not redundant and that if anything needs to go its the subjective fans speak scrappy clone, then I have no problem looking through SNK boss's examples for errors to correct.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

Really? I see this on That One Boss:

• While we're on the topic of Street Fighter, one would think that Alpha 3's Final Boss of M. Bison was enough of an utter bastard to deal with. Warping all around the screen, air throwing you without warning, and woe be to anyone caught in mid-air during a Psycho Crusher that wipes out half your health.

There's also inversions appearing:

• Inversion: The boss fights were the least insanely and brokenly difficult parts of Battletoads...Oh, except for the Hypno Orb on "Clinger Winger", which if encountered in 2-player mode makes the game Un Winnable! Haha!

"does not accept" is not preventing editors from adding them. Either that, or they haven't been cleaned since that "rule" was made. You're talking about the description, I'm talking about the examples. The examples of both tropes have misuse, natter, and no context.

To emphasize my point, guess which page the two lines are from:

• Geese Howard is usually the toughest boss in every game that has him, especially the Real Bout Fatal Fury games, where his regular attacks are beefed up.
• In the first game, he was armed with a projectile that could cut off a third of your health, has incredible priority, and a counter-throw he could use against any attack he chose (even when you were simply jumping at him he could grab you out of the air with said counter-throw), setting the boundaries to be later broken by Rugal. Fortunately for the player, he suffered from the same bug as all other players: he's vulnerable for the first frame of standing up.

edited 4th Jan '12 1:03:50 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

And that's what we have been arguing: it's the That One Boss page that needs a fix. And Bobby G told me to create a TRS for it, so I did. Go there and help instead of bitching about the trope that works. Natter can be fixed, but that has nothing to do with the difference between a SNK Boss and That One Boss.

And NO, Perfect Play A.I. isn't part of The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard. Perfect Play A.I. is the AI responding perfectly to your moves but not doing anything you can't do. So if the description of The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard mentions Perfect Play A.I. then that part is WRONG.

EDIT: Since that part is wrong I went there and deleted it. Read Perfect Play A.I. if you don't believe me when I say that it's not part of The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard.

edited 4th Jan '12 3:17:29 AM by DrMcNinja

There are no heroes left in Man.

My point was that SNK Boss is contributing to the problem; the examples for both tropes are written the same way.

And you are in error about Perfect Play A.I.:

" The AI's main advantage here is that Computers Are Fast,and it can execute these actions with split-second timing and pixel-perfect precision. Whereas a human opponent must visually deduce and predict what their opponent is about to do next, an AI can immediately and directly identify whatever action (movement, attack/defend, etc.) the player is currently performing, even if different moves have similar tells that would confuse a human player."

It is technically not cheating, but as far as the player is concerned, it might as well be. Which is why the trope links to The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard several times. The computer gets to follow rules that the player cannot.

Edit: I started following this story when this thread got unlocked. There is work that needs to be done here, and blaming That One Boss won't solve it.

edited 5th Jan '12 7:14:57 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Natter is not for the TRS to solve, it's for Special Efforts. And this trope only conflicts with the fighting page AFAIK, and we're already trying to solve that in the That One Boss page, which, as explained, DOES have the fault. Unless you bring something else then we're done with this.

And I'm not in error, seeing you know and accept that Perfect Play A.I. is not cheating. It may be similar, but it's not the same. In this case the "technically" part is quite important. The computer does nothing you can't do, and you can beat it if you are smart enough to exploit that fact. Most times it becomes "parry and riposte", but I think there may be some other ways, like abusing the Unblockable Attack.

Not that it has anything to do with this anyway.

There are no heroes left in Man.

So, what exactly needs to be done to SNK Boss, other than opening it to non-Fighting Game examples and trimming the hell out of the entire page, examples included?

edited 5th Jan '12 12:48:19 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

If it has Natter (and it has it), go to Special Efforts and open a thread to deal with it. I don't know if there are enough examples that fit outside of fighting games, but if there are I suppose they should stay.

I guess that's all?

There are no heroes left in Man.

Description needs cleaning.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Well, while we said this trope is technically limited to fighting games I think all the "non fighting game examples should be cut"(seriously Fire Emblem?). Custom Robo seems to be the only one on that list where any given unit is supposed to have some element of balance until they throw a complete Bull crap boss at you for an extra challenge and I think Custom Robo can just be added to the fighting game category without complaints.

Edit:Advance Wars can probably stay too, given most of the C Os are supposed to be balanced. I'm going to need some convincing for the rest though, Kingdom Heart's doesn't belong for another.

edited 5th Jan '12 9:59:13 PM by Cider

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

What's the status of this? It just need some examples clean up and we're done? Or does the description need to be changed to imply that this is not just about fighting bosses?

An example I can think of is: Magus from Chrono Trigger. Of course, each boss in the game is stronger on the last, but Magus comes and breaks the rules of the game temporarily, by having an attack that auto-counter attacks your characters whenever he's hit (later on the player can gain this ability for a character, but without the overpower and with drawbacks Magus doesn't get.)

Later on, the character may join your party, and suffer an unexplained Redemption Demotion (not even that, the player gets an option to either have the "normal Magus" join the party or fight the "SNK Boss Magus".)

He's not a Final Boss, and the genre isn't Fighting, but I still think it's an example. It may not be That One Boss because if the player is overleveled he may not be a big threat. It's not a Bonus Boss the first time because the player is forced to play against him (he's only one the second time.)

He Lacks of Certain Functions and Limitations, has Blatantly Overpowered Attacks and Defeat Means Playable.

So I'd propose changing the description to note that this is not an exclusive Fighting trope, and not an exclusive Final Boss trope (it's just that usually it's a Final Boss on a Fighting game by SNK), but otherwise I see no problem with the page (I'd also support no change at all).

We should probably get a page action crowner. There are numerous different suggestions on how to deal with this.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

If I were going to try to come up with definition, it would be something like "In a game based around fights between balanced characters, so that fights are decided by skill, there is one boss that is blatantly overpowered, possibly to the point of cheating.

It wouldn't be limited to fighting games, but it would be limited to games that have a similar setup as fighting games. Take the Magic: The Gathering video game example. It's not a fighting game, but it's a game where the two sides are supposed to be evenly matched, with skill determining who wins, so a boss that has a deck full of overpowered and banned cards would count.

RTS games have more good examples. The RTS genre is usually about players with similar resources each trying to build the best army and beat the other. So when you have a campaign that pits you against an overpowered per-built army in the last level, it's very similar to the fighting game examples.

edited 3rd Mar '12 2:59:05 AM by abk0100

In your Mt G example: that depends. If the computer uses overpowered cards, then that's not cheating because you could get the same cards. If the computer uses banned cards that you can't use, that's a different story.

But that's only because the concept of Mt G is that you can customize your deck. In a fighting game, if the computer's character has a teleportation move and yours doesn't, that's not cheating at all. That's just the fact that different characters have different moves.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

I see what you're saying about the Magic example, and I'd agree. What I'm getting at is: characters in fighting games (and some other games) are supposed to have balanced moves. If a boss has a teleport move, that doesn't matter, but if they have a teleport move that is overpowered to the point that it would never have been given to a normal playable character, that makes him an SNK Boss.

edited 3rd Mar '12 3:25:28 AM by abk0100

But it doesn't make him The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard.

My point is that people (or trope pages) are misusing the term "cheating" when they really mean "Purposely Overpowered", "That One Boss", or "Nintendo Hard".

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

Unless it's supposed to be the same character, but yeah, Secret A.I. Moves and all.

I support that SNK Boss is technically limited to games where the boss is a character that is breaks the otherwise-intended Competitive Balance. Examples from non-fighting games where the boss was never intended for a PVP scenario (if the game even has any PVP at all, e.g: any Mario or Final Fantasy) cannot be an SNK boss.

edited 3rd Mar '12 5:03:06 AM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

Clocking due to lack of activity.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.