Gundam AGE

Hell, even Loran Cehack iced a couple of dudes on occasion.

And seriously, if you're not prepared to do anything with it, why bother getting in your mech at all? Why not just go around in a shuttle with a top-of-the-line speaker system broadcasting about UNDERSTANDING to everyone?

Mobile Suits are weapons, after all.

Actually, Loran, if I remember right, DIRECTLY killed only one person. And while he regretted it after, in hindsight it was a necessary thing that needed to be done.

What Rethis seems to be not understanding is that many of the pilots (from UC or otherwise) we keep on mentioning again and again and AGAIN are on some level or another as idealistic as Kio. However, they realize that there are really some things that CAN'T be avoided especially during wartime. This is, of course, killing people, something that even Banagher of Unicorn learned very quickly.

Lets just get something straight here, killing someone in war doesn't mean that the person who did it is a cold-blooded murderer, unless the person in question actually starts out that way (cough Ali Al-Saachez, Yazan Gabel cough).

The important thing is what can be done AFTER all the dust has settled.

edited 11th Sep '12 10:08:08 AM by MyssaRei

Yup. Loran did hesitate for sure on that one, but if he hadn't fired then Queen Dianna, Sochie, and a lot of other people would have died for sure. Killing and war are bad, of course (that being like, the main thing the whole franchise is about). But sometimes not killing is a mistake in war. And that's like, the other huge thing Gundam is about. All that dichotomy stuff. It's a grey area, but AGE hasn't been treating it like that since after the Mars trip.

Kio being a pacifist isn't bad in of itself and that isn't what people in this thread have been saying; it's the way he does it that's bad. I mean, the Deen & Zanald fight was the only fight Kio's done in FX that I thought was palatably written. But it came after he tried preaching at the xfm-Onion or whatever Godom had. And after a whole bunch of other preachy fights. If he was just flailing around like a confused kid and maybe asked someone for help or tried a different tactic after he saw that preaching NEVER WORKS, I don't think we would be nearly as pissed at him. But he doesn't. He just knows that he's doing things the right way and he's a great pilot when all the action isn't justifying his faith in himself. (I mean really, if you turn the sound down Kio's piloting skills are no different now than back when he was getting tutored by Shanalua. Informed Ability to the max.)

I'll have to see Seed Destiny now, to check if AGE is worse. Althought I doubt so.

But the problem is those other pilots became just as bad as the people they're fighting by going "welp you disagree with me, that means you don't deserve to live" Kio at least looks like he's at the very least above that hypocrisy, realizing that disarming is probably the better solution. By killing your enemies, you aren't bringing justice, you're just throwing another body on the pile.

The hipocrisy is not a flaw of the character, it is a necessity of the setting.

Nobody ever said that killing is right (unless, of course, it is done to people like Ali Al Saachez or Desil Galette). But sometimes it is necessary.

Loran never becomes as bad as his enemies. Loran is trying to get peace and stuff, while his enemies want to recreate an Apocalypse How because they think returning to an age of survivalist war and hell would be awesome. There is no way that killing one of them to stop them killing everyone who is working their butts off for peace and stuff makes him "just as bad." The fact that Loran regrets it itself makes him better than they are. I'd say the same for Banagher (who has a huge Heroic BSoD the first time he kills someone and is almost catatonic after killing someone else) and probably the other pacifists.

People like Ghiren Zabi, Decil, Ali Al-Saachez, and Zanald either rejoice in the blood they're spilling or don't give a damn about the suffering they cause. No, killing them isn't the best solution but a space battle isn't in a situation where placing them under arrest and subjecting them to the due process of law is possible. It's do-or-die, although more likely do-or-watch-your-friends-die since Gundam protagonists have Plot Armor most of the time.

Wow, I have missed a lot since I stopped watching this show. Looking over posts and watching some clips from some episodes, is it wrong that I'm almost impressed by Zanald? Going from "that bad guy who isn't Zeheart" to "most hated man in the fandom" in one fell swoop takes some effort.

To Rethis—I don't agree with your love of AGE but I understand your pain. I'm a SEED fan and more to the point, a SEED Destiny fan. It's rough, but you get used to it.

I do have to jump on the "killing is sometimes necessary" wagon though. I can't really speak for Loran or Banagher, but I never saw a conflict between Kira' Technical Pacifism and his killing of Le Creuset (who was far too dangerous in every sense to let live) and Stella (who was killing fifty people every time she opened fire). Some people do have to die, whether because you can't afford to hold back against them or because they are going to take everybody with them if you don't. Call it hypocrisy if you want but it can be necessary.

I think the problem with AGE, at least the part right now with Kio, is that they're trying to hammer home the 'There are victims on every side, there are noble people on every side, war is the home of despicable acts, no matter what side you're on', which is all true in real life. except that, for very few exceptions, everyone on the Vagan's military side are a bunch of delusional maniacs or ax-crazy psychopaths out for blood, and the few that weren't have either been killed, or in the case of Zeheart, hit with terminal bad writing.

So, Kio just looks like an idiot. Say what you want about Kira, but at least he knew when it was time to take a kill shot, his thing was less pacifism, and more minimizing the cost of war.

It also doesn't help that it feels like Kio is just sort of...there. He has little true stake in the plot, and no one on the other side to bounce off of and clash with. The main bad guy isn't his rival, it's his dad's. His grandfather is the one leading the war, and has the most emotional stake, being a bitter old man out for blood for the wounds delivered to him.

Kio has, what? Ezelcant, who has essentially retired from the plot, and Deen, who really could have worked, but caught a terminal case of the deads the first time they came to blows, just to show how ax-crazy another on the Vegan side is. (Which goes back to point 1.)

I may have said this before, but it's worth repeating: I think killing Decil was one of the worst decisions AGE ever made. Not because he was a wonderful person or anything like that (far from it) but because having him around gave them a go-to guy whenever Vagan had to do something awful. Test a weapon on your own men? Decil. Convince a bunch of ace pilots to disobey orders and get killed? Decil. Kill the love interest? Decil. Kill the mentor? Decil. After they got rid of him, the rest of Vagan became noticably more evil as they scrambled to fill in the void he'd left in the show. Zeheart's character derailment, Lord Ezelcant's moronic plan, and Zanald's introduction are all aspects of Season 3, as they try to make Vagan maintain their threat level, without their biggest monster.

On the subject of Kio he is the worst kind of pacifist. Loran had to work at it which made him interesting. While some might feel Kira was overpowered, that at least meant he was able to disarm enemies without killing them, something Kio doesn't seem to have gotten the hang of yet. Kio falls somewhere in-between them, whining about understanding while not doing anything.

Episode 47:

Good things about the episode: basically everything about Seric Abis. The man will be missed.

Kio still annoys me. I understand not wanting anyone dead but man, it feels like he's showing no regard for his allies at all.

edited 14th Sep '12 10:20:08 PM by fillerdude

Honestly, they should have given the "blind ideologue" character arc to Zanald. Zeheart was supposed to be the utilitarian guy, not the despot.

edited 14th Sep '12 10:43:15 PM by vandro

Probably would have worked out better that way. As is, he's coming off as a less heinous Decil, and Zeheart, I just don't know. Of course, the best possible solution would have been to keep Ezelcant as this spiritual leader bringing his people back to Earth no matter the cost, and screw this Social Darwinist crap.

The Social Darwinist crap is one of my biggest frustrations with the turns G3 has taken. I'm pretty sure the writers tossed that in there because Gundam villains are supposed to have some kind of lofty goal that speaks to human nature, but... his stated goal still had plenty of that. I mean, the whole conversation about how every individual Vagan has to deaden themselves inside and "can you hear the cries of those who have lost human feelings?" filled that requirement pretty well.

And agreed very much on that point. It's like after episode 15 they forgot that they'd given Vagan this actually quite understandable motivation to be pissed off and declare war on the Feddies and then OOPS RIGHT KIO NEEDS TO BE A PACIFIST LET'S STUFF A BUNCH OF SYMPATHY POINTS INTO 37 AND 38 SO THE AUDIENCE SIDES WITH HIM halfway through G3... and then... they go right back to unlikable dicks railroading the Vagan POV.

I think if they hadn't made the Magicians 8 into Innovades Lite and instead given them like... the newbie jitters, a sick relative, a case of bitterness against the Feddies who don't even know how good they have it, less of the fans would be siding with Flit right now.

edited 15th Sep '12 7:31:02 PM by eowynjedi

I am pretty sad that I side with Asemu the most, but his POV is the least explored and most vague.

In a lot of ways, Asem gets screwed by his father's continued presence in the show. Every time Flit appeared in Generation 2 he effectively stole Asem's thunder. Worse still, as the longest running character in the show, the audience's sympathies naturally gravitate towards him, irrespective of how bad he is. Flit is the show's most memorable character, is probably it's best and most consistent character, and hilariously, that is hurting the show. Of the three main characters, he's the only one whose decisions are actually driving the plot.

Ezelcant could have been an interesting villain. He had a good motivation, and the semireligious aspects of his role were something Gundam hasn't really done before. Screwed-over colonists who see the Earth as a sort of paradise? That's new. And then they wrecked it.

I think the portrayal of Vagan has gotten worse with every season. 2 could have counteracted it with Zeheart, and to a degree was, using Decil as the monster, and Zeheart as the "good Vagan." The minute Decil died though, that portrayal died too, as they force Zeheart, Zanald, and Ezelcant to take over the job of "making Vagan look bad." Seriously writers, if you wanted Vagan to be lead by an unlikeable psycho with no good traits, why didn't you just have Decil stick around and launch a coup d'etat? At least then we'd have had one more long-runner stay on the show.

edited 15th Sep '12 8:50:09 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Yeah, I'd love to see more from Asemu's POV. G2 was all about him going from naive dad worship to finding his own path and being his own man AND THEN... he ditches his family for 13 years and mostly serves to be sort of a wildcard The Cavalry.

I don't know that Decil would have been sustainable into the third generation—by the end of G2, everyone was glad to see him gone and he wouldn't have been able to find anyone willing to follow him. (Then again, if they'd given him some actual smarts to go along with the bloodlust, that wouldn't necessarily have been the case...) But otherwise yes. It's like they can't really decide what they want our opinion of Vagan to me so they're constantly vacillating between "dickheads," "misguided but valiant warriors," and "tragic dickheads."

Given that most psychopaths burn out at around the age of fifty and calm down considerably, I think Decil might well have been sustainable. Instead of having Asem flat out kill him in Episode 26, he could beat him to a pulp and leave him comatose. Then, at some point in Generation 3, they could have had somebody (Zanald maybe?) bring him out for use as an attack dog. It might have been interesting to see a tired, slightly more rational, but still totally evil Decil (a little less Ali Al-Saachez and a little more Yazan Gable) at the age of fifty. More importantly, it would have been interesting to see Flit's reaction to him.

I can't help but feel that the show would have been better if they'd maintained the rivalry dynamics. Keep Decil vs Flit and Asem vs Zeheart, and give Kio someone to hate. Preferably Lord Ezelcant himself. Since Kio's trying and failing to be Kira anyway, they should have gone all out and done The Messiah vs Dark Messiah, while the brothers take on the father and son team (admit it; that'd be an epic brawl). I once saw some speculation (now seemingly false) that Decil and Zeheart were related to Ezelcant. I almost wish they'd run with that and made the war a family affair on both sides.

In fact, hell, here's my arrogant "I can do this better than the writers" moment. If this Zeera guy is the "perfect leader" that Ezelcant wants to create to replace him, why not make Decil and Zeheart previous failed experiments at doing the same. Decil was trained only for battle, went crazy, and was shuttled off to be an Ace Pilot and rabid animal. Zeheart was given an education, spent some time on Earth, and became the perfect Dragon, but lacks qualifications for supreme command. Than Zeerra would be the final Galette brother, made to take Ezelcant's place. Kill off Ezelcant, release him, and voila.

God the fanfic ideas that are spinning in my head now...

edited 15th Sep '12 10:00:47 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I understand they wanted to have Kio being raised by KILL!ALL!VAGANS! but still, Asemu should have tried to contact his family in some way during those 13 years. Even just a reference to Captain Ash giving a gift to a six-year old Kio would have been nice.

The writers would want us to believe that what he was doing was possibly so subversive (he was also attacking Federation ships after all) that it might put unwanted pressure on his family, so he just didn't do so. Unfortunately the way its presented just makes it seem that he ran away from responsibility for more than a decade, and spent his time pining for his long-lost love Zeheart.

Execution. G3 doesn't have too many good instances of it.

Save the kind of execution that kills characters of course.

On that note, Kio and Asem keep acting like they have this minor disagreement with Flit (try and bring your grandfather around) instead of a massive disagreement over whether the enemy is human or not.

It's all because of silver-medal genetics, I tell you!

In all seriousness though, it might have been better if the specter of possible cancellation had hung over the last part of Act 3, because it would have scared the writing staff to tighten their act. But nope, ratings apparently don't matter anymore, as the game sales and model sales will makeup for the short fall caused by the low ratings and lower DVD-BR sales.

edited 15th Sep '12 10:13:07 PM by MyssaRei

When it comes to Gundam, though, Ratings really aren't going to kill the show.

the only reason it kinda did with Gundam X was less about ratings and more about the show being timeslot swapped and screwed around by the network.

even 0079 was seen as a ratings flop in 1979. the things that kept Gundam going was strong sales that led to the compilation movies being made.

Plus, these days in the anime industry it's hard to do well in ratings if it's not Moe or Shonen Jump adaptations.

the only Gundam show in recent memory that did moderately well in ratings was SEED, and I think that had more to do with that CE was very very similar to UC and didn't alienate as much of the UC people. Where AGE, like anything that tries to be a little bit different and interesting, is scoffed at for "being too different" just like the same reason 0079 didn't do well in it's day.

Heck, even 00 didn't even reach the same success of SEED, because the first season tried to be different. which they then made the second half into a Zeta rehash out of fear.

edited 15th Sep '12 10:38:24 PM by Rethis

Defensive aren't we? And the only thing "different" that AGE is doing is the Generation gimmick it has. However, if you study each generation separately you'll see the very same retreads of classic/AU stuff. There was a reason for example why, for most of G2, the "Asemu is a man's name, and I am a man!" jokes were rampant.