In addition to -1 on de-suifiers, I recommend:
In section 3a
- one point if it's a natural human trait but unusual in that setting (ie, a blonde in a race of brunettes)
- two points if it's both not a normal human trait and unusual for the setting
Add:
- zero points if it's not natural in this world (glowing eyes, etc) but normal in the character's world and the corresponding normal Real Life trait would be more unusual in the setting than the "unnatural one" - for example your character has purple hair because 95% of the "moon elves" in the setting have purple hair, and he's a moon elf.
- Maybe also add deity, dragon, elf, or any other "awesome" race (long lived, etc.) - not sure how to say this...
edited 17th Sep '11 6:42:56 PM by FrodoGoofballCoTV
Crazy Kiwi
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Which is largely to be expected amongst Tropers but I do think the De-Suifiers are quite powerful.
I just think there should just be more of them, but have them each worth less.
Runs on Awesomeness
Well, here's my characters' scores:
- Kiora, whose Sue-ness is directly proportional to my Self Loathing, scored a 63.
- Yuki, who is the much-less idealized version of Kiora, scored 18.
- Amaya gets a 10.
- Leo, my least developed character, pulls a 3.
- Lena gets a 12.
- Mordecai gets an 11.
- Keaira, the Big Bad, gets a 21.
Query: how are the various questions with secondary answers scored? That is, things like this:
- a. Did he or she not know it?
- b. Were his or her parents killed tragically, especially by the bad guy?
- c. Has your character sworn revenge for their deaths?
Is each sub-category counted separately from the main question? For instance, would a character who answers yes to all of these have 8 points?
Awesome Lightning Mantra
That's how I've done with my characters.
Crazy Kiwi
If I didn't do that, my character would have even less points than he already does. I'm pretty sure you're meant to score for each question which drives the character towards more Sueishness.
Orphan, fair enough. Just learned (s)he is an orphan and his/her real parents were killed by the Big Bad and said orphan has sworn revenge, getting rather more Sueish. Harry Potter's good for 6 points just there...
I did it like that, too. Since that's how every other Mary Sue litmus test I've seen does it, it's reasonable to assume this one does, too.
Author in waiting
I ran Egil, a half-elf of all things, through the test, and only got a 5. Granted, he is the protaganist but not the hero of the story.
I thought question 97 was a bit odd.
I've seen plenty of Mary Sues that take over being the villian, because let's face it, villians are cooler.
I am a nobody. Nobody is perfect. Therefore, I am perfect.
I put the quasi-Parody Stu I mentioned in the previous thread through this - note that I don't think he actually is a Stu (even a parody one), but he has elements of it. Answering yes to all questions that could possibly be yes:
1. Is your character similar to you in several ways, such as race, gender, approximate age, etc? Answer yes only if the character is similar in at least two ways.
Yes (As far as these particular questions go - he's more or less a parody of the author self-insert)
2. Does your character look a lot like you?
Yes (Well, it's a Stick-Figure Comic, but he theoretically looks like me)
3. Does your character have the same name as you, or a name that is a variant of yours, such as a nickname or different spelling? (Score two points for this question.)
Yes
4. Does your character have the same job as you or study the same subject in school?
Yes
5. Does your character have a job or skill that you really wish you had?
No (this is actually sort of the essence of the character, really - he is something of an Escapist Character, but not the kind of escapism I would personally want)
6. Does your character share strong opinions and beliefs with you?
Yes (not all, but certainly some)
- a. Does he or she often state these opinions, argue with other characters about them, or try to win them over?
No
7. Is your character an orphan?
No
- a. Did he or she not know it?
- b. Were his or her parents killed tragically, especially by the bad guy?
- c. Has your character sworn revenge for their deaths?
8. Was your character raised in an abusive home?
No
9. Was your character disowned or abandoned by one or both parents?
No
10. Has your character been raped?
No
11. Has your character been tortured?
Yes (Cool and Unusual Punishment probably shouldn't count, but I did say I'm checking every question that could possibly be seen as a "yes")
12. Was your character's home destroyed?
Yes (It was rebuilt, but still)
- a. Was his or her entire town destroyed?
No
- b. Was his or her entire country or planet destroyed?
No
13. Is your character the last of his or her race?
No
14. Does your character have a mysterious past that he or she conceals from other people?
No
15. Does your character have amnesia?
No
16. Has your character lost a close friend, relative, or mentor (not counting parents)?
Yes (during the course of the story, though not previously)
- a. Was it your character's fault?
No
- b. Does he or she only think it was his or her fault?
No
- c. Does everyone else try to convince him or her it wasn't his or her fault?
No
17. Is your character plagued with guilt about anything else?
No
- a. Something that wasn't his or her fault?
- b. Does everyone else try to convince him or her that it wasn't his or her fault?
18. Has your character died and come back to life? (Score five points for this question.)
No (he's been in situations that looked like he apparently died, only to return without explanation, but this was entirely Played for Laughs and shouldn't count)
19. Is your character a member of a despised race, class, or culture?
No
- a. A good guy from an evil race or culture?
20. Does your character suffer no lasting mental or emotional consequences from any of this, not counting dramatic angst? Skip this question if your character has a truly happy backstory.
Yes (Angst? What Angst? is in effect for everyone, not just him)
21. Is your character part of a race/species that is not the most common for his or her location?
No
- a. Is your character's race especially rare (less than 1% of the population)?
- b. Is your character's race completely unknown in that place, or previously undiscovered?
22. Is your character a hybrid of two races?
No
- a. Three or more races?
- b. With the benefits of all of them, but none of the weaknesses?
23. Is your character unusually attractive?
No
- a. Do other characters comment on it?
- b. Does your character glow or sparkle?
24. Does your character have an unusual birthmark, scar, or similar mark? (Score one point instead of two if this feature makes the character unattractive.)
No
25. Does your character have a cool weapon?
Yes
- a. Does your character use a sword or similar in a setting where guns are common?
No
- b. Is the weapon out of place in that culture (such as a katana in medieval Europe)?
No
- c. Is it claymore-sized or larger?
No
26. Does your character wear all black, all leather, or another cool-looking outfit?
No
- a. Or is the outfit sexy and revealing?
- b. Is it impractical for the setting?
- c. Do you wish you had your character's outfit?
27. Does your character have an important artifact, magic item, or other plot object? (Skip this question if it's the weapon mentioned above.)
No
29. Is your character royalty?
No
- a. A long-lost heir or similar?
28. Does your character have a title or cool nickname (not counting any one that is normal to his or her station)?
No
- a. One earned by some feat of great renown?
30. Does the character have a wide-ranging reputation (not because of his or her station)?
Yes (not sure I understood this one, but I think it's a "yes")
31. Is your character smarter than everyone else in the story?
No (although he is smarter then most of them)
32. Is your character an expert at multiple unrelated skills?
No
- a. Is there no good explanation for why he or she is good at them?
33. Is your character the absolute best at something?
No
- a. More than one thing?
- b. Without a good explanation?
34. Does your character master new skills exceptionally fast?
Yes
- a. Faster than anyone has ever learned that skill?
No
- b. Does he or she defeat the master who taught him or her those skills? (Skip this question if the mentor is old and infirm or has otherwise lost some of his or her skills.)
No
35. Does your character accomplish something that no one has ever accomplished, or that no one has accomplished in ages?
Yes (not by himself, but yes)
36. Does your character have an unusual name?
No
- a. Does it have it contain apostrophes, non-English (or whatever language you are writing in) letters, or is it otherwise near-unpronounceable?
- b. Is it a word that isn't usually a name?
- c. Is it a name usually given to the opposite gender (not counting names that work for both genders, like Sam and Jordan)?
- d. More than three names, not counting titles?
37. Is your character a werewolf or vampire?
No
38. Does your character have an unusual hair color?
No
39. Does your character have an unusual eye color?
No
40. Does your character have wings?
No
41. Does your character have cybernetic implants or other high-tech augmentation?
Yes (eventually)
42. Does your character have ears, a tail, or other “furry” traits?
No
43. Does your character have any other unusual physical characteristics?
No
44. Does your character have a special magical or supernatural attack?
Yes (eventually)
45. Does your character have a healing factor or healing powers?
No
46. Is your character ageless or immortal?
No
47. Does your character have magical ability not already mentioned?
No
48. Does your character have a superpower not already mentioned?
No
- a. More than one?
49. Does your character have a familiar or animal companion?
No
- a. More than one?
- b. Is it a mythical or supernatural creature?
50. Does your character have any other highly unique skills or personality traits?
Yes
51. Is your character the Chosen One, the only person who can defeat the villain or complete some other task?
No
52. Are there any other prophecies about your character?
No
53. Does your character defeat the main villain by him- or herself?
No
- a. Does he or she defeat every antagonist by him- or herself?
No
- b. Does your character defeat villains who are much more powerful than him or her?
Yes
- c. Does your character win easily without a struggle?
No (I assumed this means against the aforesaid "villains who are much more powerful", not against any opponent)
54. Does your character defeat whole groups of dangerous enemies at once?
Yes
- a. Does he or she defeat an entire army by him- or herself?
No
55. Does your character accomplish everything he or she attempts on the first try?
No
56. Does your character never lose a fight or competition, even a casual one?
No
57. Is every major plot point accomplished by your character alone? (Score five points for this question.)
No
58. Do usually-competent characters end up needing his or her help?
No
- a. Do skilled characters need his or her help with the things they're supposed to be good at?
No
59. Do characters otherwise behave differently around him or her for no good reason (such as rebellious characters who immediately obey her)?
No
60. Does the story treat your character's goals and problems as far more important than anyone else's?
No
- a. As far more important than larger threats?
61. Does your character break any rules of your universe, such as the rules of magic, or do those rules work differently for him or her alone?
Yes (all the main characters or "Nerds" are defined by being Inexplicably Awesome in this regard)
62. Does your character break the laws of the real universe?
Yes (I agree that this is a very unclear question)
- a. Does the world act differently around him- or her (flowers blooming, the sun coming out, etc)?
No
63. If the story is not narrated by your character, is he or she in every scene?
No
64. Is your character introduced very dramatically?
No
65. Do you describe your character in particularly florid detail?
No
66. Does everyone automatically like your character?
No
- a. Everyone except villains, who automatically hate him or her?
- b. Do people obsess over him or her (following him or her around, wanting to be just like him or her, etc)?
- c. Even if your character is mean to him or her?
67. If other people dislike your character, is it because they're jealous?
Yes (true for one villain - not all people who dislike this character)
- b. Is it obsessive hate?
Yes (same villain)
- c. Does everyone else in the story hate them for it?
No
- d. Does something bad happen to people who dislike your character, especially ironically?
Yes (some though not all)
- e. Does the person who disliked him or her die (not counting villains)?
No
- f. Would he or she have died, but your character saves him or her?
No
68. Do multiple other characters fall in love with your character?
No
- a. Does your character get to have sex with lots of other characters?
No
- b. Or could he or she if he or she weren't too virtuous?
No
- c. Do people of the wrong sexual orientation fall in love with your character?
No
- d. People who ought to be out of his or her league?
No
- e. Villains or enemies?
No
69. Does your character singlehandedly redeem a villain?
No
- a. Through love and/or sex?
70. Does your character tend to defy authority?
No
- a. Does he or she not get in trouble for it?
- b. Does he or she convince the authorities that he or she is right?
71. Does your character otherwise avoid getting in trouble in situations where other people would get punished?
No
- a. Or does he or she get a cool punishment when other people would get a serious punishment?
- b. If he or she does get punished, does the authority figure wish he or she didn't have to punish your character (and only your character)?
72. Alternately, do people go out of their way to get your character in trouble, or does he or she often get punished unfairly?
No
73. When there are disagreements, is your character always right?
No
- a. Alternately, are there no disagreements because everyone knows your character is right?
No
- b. Does something happen that proves him or her right?
No
- c. Is the person who disagreed with him or her punished, especially ironically (skip this and the following if you already counted it in question 67)?
- d. Does the person who disagreed die?
- e. Would he or she have died, but your character saves him or her?
74. Does your character get listened to, followed, and respected more than his or her age, position, and experience would merit?
Yes (see Improbable Age)
75. Do important people make time for your character when they ought to have better things to do?
Yes
76. Does your character know things that he or she has no explicable way of finding out?
No
77. Does your character have modern views that are unusually progressive for that setting? (Skip this entire question if the story is specifically about the conflict between his or her views and the traditional views.)
No
- a. Does he or she convince other people of his or her views?
- b. Does he or she change the entire culture to his or her views?
78. Is your character allowed to do something that his or her age, gender, race, or class is not usually allowed to do (practicing in secret doesn't count)?
Yes
- a. Something that no one is allowed to do?
79. Does your character not work or have any other source of income, and yet always has plenty of money?
No
- a. If your character does have a job, is he or she never seen actually doing it?
- b. If your character is in school, is he or she never seen studying, but always gets good grades?
Yes (while the characters were in college at first, this was barely ever depicted for any of them)
80. If your character is royalty or any other kind of leader, does he or she never have any actual responsibilities?
No
81. Does your character have informed flaws (flaws that never actually negatively affect him or her)?
No
- a. Are his or her only personality flaws stubbornness, impulsiveness, or a bad temper?
No
- b. Are these always justified (he or she only impulsively does the right thing)?
82. Does your character consider a cool trait to be a curse, even though it doesn't have any actual negative effects?
No
- a. Does he or she consider his or her popularity to be a curse?
- b. How about his or her exceptional talents?
83. If your character is injured, is he or she fine in the next scene?
Yes (true for all characters in most cases)
84. If your character has a vice like a drug addiction, does he or she never suffer any consequences from it?
No
85. Does your character die heroically?
No
- a. Does your character come back from the dead because the world needs him or her so badly? (Score five points for this question.)
86. Is your character middle-aged or older (40+ or the equivalent for his or her race)?
No
- a. Is he or she a senior (65+ or the equivalent)?
87. Is your character overweight?
No (actually slightly yes, considering that he's based off me physically, but it's not reflected in the drawings)
88. Is your character ugly, both in-story and in the real world?
No
- a. Is he or she disfigured in a way that is not cool or sexy?
89. Does your character have a physical handicap that interferes with his or her life? (If your character has a physical handicap that doesn't interfere in any way, add one point instead of subtracting two.)
No (I assume glasses do not count)
90. Does your character have a mental illness that interferes with his or her life (not counting amnesia, multiple personality disorder, nymphomania, or anything else cool)?
No
91. Does your character fail at something important?
Yes
- a. Are there significant negative consequences?
Yes
- b. Does he or she ever lose a fight against someone of the same or lesser skill level?
Yes
- c. Does your character ever ignore a problem hoping it will go away (but it doesn't), or give up on something without trying?
Yes
92. Does your character need another character's help with something important?
Yes
- a. Does your character get rescued by someone who isn't a love interest?
Yes
93. Is your character ever wrong and admits that he or she is wrong?
Yes (though admitting he's wrong is rare - he is an Insufferable Genius)
- a. Does a wrong choice ever lead to negative consequences?
Yes
94. Does your character struggle with doubts about the morality of his or her actions, and are these doubts never fully resolved?
No
95. Does your character ever get ignored, snubbed, or overlooked by characters who aren't villains?
Yes
96. Does your character mistreat another person who isn't a villain?
Yes
- a. Do other characters call him or her out on it?
Yes
- b. Does he or she admit that he or she shouldn't have done it and tries to change?
No
97. Does your character ever do something outright villainous?
No
- a. Does he or she ever team up with the villains?
No
98. Are there other characters who consistently outthink your character?
Yes
99. Does your character end the story single?
Yes (although he is asexual so this is pretty much a given)
- a. Alternately, is your character in a committed relationship for the whole story with no significant romantic rivals?
100. Does your character have other problems that don't go away by the end of the story?
Yes (I made a point of giving him very little character development)
Final score of 34 - sounds about right (and really not that out of place in the setting anyway).
Will post my overall opinion of the test later.
edited 17th Sep '11 9:26:30 PM by nrjxll
Lucha Libre goddess
I think the issue is much simplier than this. Instead of having 100+ questions.The problem can be solved easily if treated as an issue of balance. A Mary Sue is simply an imbalance between a character and the plot (the plot would include other characters). Any trait can be sueised (so to speak) and every character is an Author Avatar (lato sensu).
A character can be imbalanced for it's virtues or it's importance
Imbalance by being too virtous
There isn't a limit to how powerful or skilled a character can be. But the character need have challenges, adversity or flaws adequate to the plot and proportional to it's setting.
Imbalance by importance
Having too much importance in relation to the plot. While it's expected that both Main Characters to be the main focus of a fictional work, unless justified by the plot, a character can't be liked or hated by almost all the characters, nor being the center of attention in-universe of all of them, all the time.
Litmut tests fail becuase they only consider the character on itself and they barely consider it's relation to the plot.
For instance Superman will be a Mary Sue in the Scooby Doo unviverse (he rays through mosnters mask and the mystery is over in 10 seconds flat). But he will be the opposite in the Harry Potter universe (he is weak to magic)
edited 17th Sep '11 10:06:24 PM by FallenLegend
Make your hearth shine through the darkest night; let it transform hate into kindness, evil into justice, and loneliness into love.
This one does consider that, though, which is why it's good.
edited 17th Sep '11 9:45:12 PM by tropetown
Lucha Libre goddess
Sounds great! However I am not proposing a test.
But more of a honest auto evaluation. If the author isn't able to do thi he is in dennial and no test score will help him/her notice that his charater is a "Mary Sue".
As I said you can't label a character as sue if you don't consider the plot as well. No test can do both. Hence the reason the evaluation must be honest and by the author.
edited 17th Sep '11 10:04:53 PM by FallenLegend
Make your hearth shine through the darkest night; let it transform hate into kindness, evil into justice, and loneliness into love.
On overall assessment, I think this is a pretty good test - almost certainly the best I've ever seen. It could use some improvements, but most of those have already been pointed out.
I changed accounts.
17
Hm. It was all the way up to 29 until at the end. Probably because she's the Token Evil Teammate. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Also known as Katz
Fallen Legend, you're absolutely right—no test can actually determine if your character works within the context of the story, and there is no substitute for good beta readers and honest self-evaluation.
Still, my test was created in response to that very problem. It attempts to rectify the problem by asking a lot of plot- and context-dependent questions and weighting them more heavily than the simple "does he/she have cool trait X?" questions.
edited 17th Sep '11 10:53:58 PM by jewelleddragon
I am vexed!
I always dislike questions that begins with "Do you wish you had...", because it's usually "yes". But that applies to characters from the works of others, too. I sure as hell wish I had some of those cool outfits. I personally wouldn't add a point for that kind of small wish fulfillment, simply because it's common practice, even with fantastic authors, to add tidbits and trinkets of what they personally like to protagonists and protagonist-aligned characters. Also:
25. Does your character have a cool weapon?
- a. Does your character use a sword or similar in a setting where guns are common?
- b. Is the weapon out of place in that culture (such as a katana in medieval Europe)?
- c. Is it claymore-sized or larger?
B could be a Sueish thing, but A and C are perfectly fine. Guns were in Europe from the 14th century onwards, but swords were still ideal personal combat weapons up until the invention of fast-firing rifles in the 19th century. Claymore-sized isn't necessarily that huge, and you'd be surprised how common swords of approximately that size were. In Europe, shifts in combat methods during the High Middle Ages gave swords a more relevant position in warfare. As such, two-handed, long-bladed swords became more common.
If one were to remove guns from the modern context, two-handed swords would still be the "ideal". They're not particularly heavy, but using two hands allows for more power, speed, stamina and control. The only reason to use a single-handed sword is to have a free off hand for a shield or another weapon.
EDIT: I just ran an Author Avatar character through it and got -5. While I see what you're doing with the de-Sueifiers, they might be a little intense. Although I'm not sure that you should change them, since stuff like "dies heroically" is pretty cool and common, but worth a whopping 3 Suepointe on its own.
edited 17th Sep '11 11:50:19 PM by MadassAlex
Swordsman Troper — Reclaiming The Blade — Watch
Maelstrom
Yeah, the problem that I found with this one (and others) was that a lot of the character's traits are justified in story, and I really wasn't sure to include some, since you did state, "However, skip any question that there's a good in-story reason for."
That statement kind of messed my scoring up, since there's a good in-story reason for pretty much everything, naturally.
I write pretty good fanfiction, sometimes.
I changed accounts.
Yes, "claymore-sized" doesn't make sense because, well, a claymore isn't actually that big.
Swords in the era of guns is iffy. It should probably read more like "does your character use a sword or other archaic weapon in a setting with modern guns without a good reason to?"
edited 17th Sep '11 11:52:41 PM by USAF713
I am now known as Flyboy.
Also known as Katz
By that question I really meant using swords in a setting where guns have rendered them obsolete (since that basically guarantees that it's in the "cool but impractical" category), not like musketeers using guns. I should rephrase that.
That's already how I parsed it, but it probably does need to be rewritten to reflect that.
Also known as Katz
I was trying to avoid penalizing characters for being treated ways that are actually realistic within the context of the story. For instance, if the character is a princess, she's already racked up points for that, and I don't want to keep penalizing her for all the special treatment you'd expect a princess to receive (avoiding punishment, being allowed to do things others can't, etc).
But you're definitely right that the caveat can be interpreted as a universal pass: "Everyone likes her because she's really likeable!" How would you handle this problem?
Crazy Kiwi
I'm pretty sure we've all got a pretty good idea of when swords started to become less popular and that there was quite an overlap of swords and guns - especially given that the earlier guns were slow to load and only one or two shots, compared with swords that could be used at all times. We all pretty much know when a sword is out of place for the setting.
I changed accounts.
How so?
I had characters using swords in the age of Humongous Mecha and starships, because, being superpowered individuals, it was easier for them to cut a tank in half than to try and shoot it with some stupidly-large gun.
I am now known as Flyboy.
Either the desuifiers are a bit much or we're just good at character creation.