Needs a wick cleanup following name change: Help Face Turn

This had less votes when I made that post. That said, I guess this is ready to be called despite the minimal vote count. It is rather one-sided. I made an alternative titles crowner.

edited 24th Sep '11 10:39:00 PM by Insignificant

Crowners swapped.

This crowner looks like it's about ready to be called. Mistreatment-Induced Betrayal is winning by a large margin.

Calling the crowner. Rename to Mistreatment-Induced Betrayal

Trope renamed. Now all I've gotta do is clean up the wicks.

Moved the Discussion archive, Moved thread to Special Efforts, changed thread title to indicate that all that needs to be done is a wick clean-up.

edited 27th Sep '11 1:28:57 PM by Madrugada

I'd be willing to help - how far have you gotten?

Unpunctuated wicks T-Z have been changed. This is a tough trope to clean up, since it's hard to detect misuse if you're not knowledgeable of the work.

Must it be called Mistreatment-Induced Betrayal? This is TV Tropes, and that used to mean that everything had a punny or clever name. The rename needs a rename IMHO.

If you felt that way, you should have voted for something else while the crowner was open, instead of showing up after the fact to deliver your totally unheard-of criticism.

If you did vote for something else, well, that's democracy for you.

Gonna start checking the "A" wicks soon - I'll try and meet you halfway, Insignificant?

We don't rename tropes for not having clever enough titles. We have a whole index of tropes that are Exactly What It Says on the Tin. We keep those titles because they're accurate and they work.

edited 27th Sep '11 6:11:09 PM by Insignificant

First of all, the snark's much appreciated.

Second, I didn't even know there was talk of renaming it until it was too late. But if that's how it works, I guess I'll suggest an alternate name ASAP.

Third, I've got no idea what an "A wick" is. I didn't even know what a "crowner" was (evidently a poll re. what to rename something) until today. You'll have to excuse me for not knowing all the terminology automatically.

EDIT: Never mind, it looks like it means "Entries beginning with 'A'."

edited 27th Sep '11 6:16:42 PM by KilgoreTrout

I apologize for the snark before, but it is very tiring to hear They Changed It, Now It Sucks! from people who did absolutely nothing to try and oppose the change. The Trope Repair Shop thread here was open for 31 days - that's more than enough time for people who either opposed the rename or would have preferred a different new name to have made their voices heard. It might not have changed anything, but it certainly makes your position much easier to respect then showing up after everything is done and complaining.

Also, Insignificant is right: do not try and rename this (not that you can until the Trope Repair Shop opens up) unless you have a considerably better reason then "it isn't clever enough." Wittiness is very much at the bottom of the three goals for a good trope name, and it is certainly not considered sufficient reason to rename a trope.

Edit: Went through and removed all misuse or X Just X entries up to Dark Action Girl, as these were all covered during the wick check earlier. As far as needing knowledge of the work goes, I feel that if you can't understand the example without knowing the work, then it's probably X Just X and should be done away with anyway. The uses on A Different Lesson and And Now You Must Marry Me were unclear and have been left alone for now (incidentally, the former page badly needs help with YMMV tropes on the main page).

edited 27th Sep '11 6:46:43 PM by nrjxll

Thank you for apologizing.

Anyway, I've got a lot of stuff on my watchlist, but unfortunately "Help Face Turn" wasn't one of those things. So that's why I missed it.

As for the possibility of a re-rename, it's kind of moot at the moment, because it's impossible for me to begin a new discussion until some of the others go away. Which, from the looks of it, is going to take a while. In the meantime I'll think about what you're saying.

edited 27th Sep '11 6:44:34 PM by KilgoreTrout

For the record, Kilgore Trout, a "Wick" is an internal link from within the wiki, named for troper Morgan Wick, and a crowner is basically that: a poll to decide on page actions (not always Renames, sometimes full-out deletions or trimmings).

edited 27th Sep '11 7:00:47 PM by VmKid

Really? I thought it came from "wi(c)k-i".

@nrjxll: As I said before, it looks like it'll be a while before I have a chance to request a rename. But there's still the question of whether one should be requested, and like I said I gave the matter some thought since my last post here. I think that I've thought of something that may be a valid reason for naming the trope something else, something more than just "It's boring." Tell me what you think:

After looking at the page, it seems that the name doesn't fit the trope. It may fit the Laconic, but in the main description it specifically says that the Big Bad causes this to happen by doing something their minion doesn't like. Mistreatment-Induced Betrayal, on the other hand, sounds like it could end in a Face–Heel Turn just as easily as a Heel–Face Turn. Because as we know, sometimes the good guys don't treat people particularly well either.

So as I see it, there are two ways of fixing this problem. Either rewrite the definition of the trope, or change the name of the trope.

If you want, you can redefine the trope to include Face Heel Turns as well as Heel Face Turns. Or take it to the Trope Repair Shop when there's space open. This is the name the voters chose, and it does a much better job of describing the trope than Help Face Turn.

edited 28th Sep '11 3:30:26 PM by Insignificant

I'm not married to Help Face Turn, and I'm not entirely opposed to redefining it either if others are really opposed to renaming it. I've made my peace with the fact that there's nothing I can do about anything right now—but as you said, it'll be possible to do something (rename again, redefine, make another trope for when good guys turn bad because their superiors are crappy to them, whatever) when there's space open.

And, as somebody pretty new to participating in the Trope Repair Shop, I brought up the argument so I could get some honest feedback about whether it was something other tropers in this forum would feel worthy of consideration.

Finally got around to finishing this. All wicks have been cleaned up. This discussion is resolved.