Marvel Cinematic Universe

Well, I'd say "grimdark" and "melodrama" have a pretty big overlap, so yes.

One thing I like about Arrow is how it explores the usefulness of a lone vigilante beating up poor people. Superhero shows don't have to do that, but if you're trying to be "serious", then you've got to be able to deal with that issue.

I don't even know where to start on why I don't like Arrow, because I watched it for almost three full seasons out of a bizarre compulsion to catch up in time for Constantine, only to finally give up two episodes from the end of season three because the lazy writing, awful flipfloppy characterization, and inability to reconcile the "UBER-SERIOUSNESS" of the setting and tone with some of the frankly goofy shit that goes on (though that's probably just part of the larger complaint of lazy writing) finally got to a point where I couldn't handle it any more. I already thought it was bad, but it just got intolerable.

The fan perception that it's a more mature, deeper show in spite of all that really doesn't help.

"Yes Men" I actually didn't like mostly because the lack of insight into how Lorelei's powers work (specifically why only men), although the uncomfortable glossing over of nonconsensual sex definitely didn't score it any points.

edited 27th Nov '15 6:49:38 PM by Khfan429

Agents of SHIELD has always just been an "Eh, it's pretty good" show for me. Mainly because I've rarely been all that emotionally invested in the characters, and I really don't think Coulson works well in a leading role. He was a great supporting player in the movies, but that came from his unique way of being totally unfazed by the superheroic weirdness going on, while deep down thinking it's all totally awesome. When he doesn't have an Iron Man or a Captain America to play off of, and has to be the focus of storylines rather than just commenting on them ... honestly, there's just not enough to the character to keep him interesting.

AOS hardly has Coulson as the sole focus of the show, because it's an ensemble show. Skye gets a chunk of the plot, and so does Ward, Fitz, Simmons, Bobbi, May, etc.

edited 27th Nov '15 9:40:13 PM by higherbrainpattern

Even in an ensemble one character will stand out as the most main character, like Jack in Lost, or Jack in Stargate, or Tony in Avengers. Though with Ao S I'd lean more towards Skye/Daisy being in that spot rather than Coulson.

edited 27th Nov '15 10:00:51 PM by stingerbrg

(okay fine tony has, like, an actual mustache and beard, but)

"Yes men" is still my least favourite episode of the show. Ironically it became really good just one episode later.

I think a huge problem of the first season is it that they needed ages to work past the broad strokes of the characters. To me Fitzsimmons only became interesting after they were split up for a while and I could see them as two persons instead of one entity. May has this whole traumatic backstory going on which was only hinted at to the point of annoyance but made her a great character once it got revealed (by the end of season 2 !!!!!). Same with Ward, for the longest time he was just this stereotypical Superagent. And Skye/Daisy was bordering on a Mary Sue the way the whole show kept emphasising how important and good she is without explaining that well why. By not, she has developed greatly too.

And yes, Coulson is the best when he has other characters to play off on. But he didn't really have those during most of the first season. There his arc was mostly about people commenting how much he changed. Which is great, but it is not like the movie told us that much about it, therefore it was a meaningless statement.

Anyway, all those problems are in the past. The show has found its groove. And it might not be to the taste of the Netflix fraction, who want to get disturbed by what they see on screen, but I prefer a nice mixture of funny and heart-breaking scenes. And of Ao S had been as good as it is now the whole time, I would place it about both Netflix shows AND Agent Carter in a heartbeat.

He doesn't fit exactly but I think Coulson is more like a Supporting Leader or Big Good. He gets a lot more focus than they typically get but at this point I think Daisy is the main protagonist.

edited 28th Nov '15 6:15:40 AM by Kostya

I think I might make a map of 'Who has had a fight with whome' in the MCU.

Like a tournament bracket?

X4 Yes men is pretty disturbing to watch in retrospect, look at how that episode deals with a mind controller forcing someone to love them and have sex with them compared to how Jessica Jones handles it.

I have no idea why it is, but historically, superhero narratives are really terrible at addressing rape that comes about because of superpowers.

It's not a problem restricted to comic books, though it's easier to think of comic book examples

Agreed. They have a bad habit of using rape as a way to try and make things edgier. Especially infamously, they tried to make Dr Light threatening again using it, and that only ended up making him look pathetic and suffer Never Live It Down.

edited 28th Nov '15 9:56:19 AM by Theokal3

That's not what comicwriter said.

They are correct though.

The specific point I was thinking of is largely for genre entertainment, not just superhero comics. Stuff like using shapeshifting Bed Tricks or magic/mind control to get someone to have sex with you often isn't viewed as rape. I think some writers still think rape is something that only happens when someone forces themselves on you in a dark alley at night.

edited 28th Nov '15 10:07:40 AM by comicwriter

Jessica Jones is vital viewing.

Adding an "also" in there before moving to a different subject would have helped.

Which is what I was bringing up in my last post to you.

edited 28th Nov '15 10:35:22 AM by VeryMelon

Brother's been watching Jessica Jones now. He gets so giddy whenever Purple Man is on screen because he's so evil.

Though he does think that the story is dragging on a bit, and becoming a bit of a cycle of "they capture Kilgrave, he escapes, does atrocities while Jessica stumbles around drunk, then he gets captured again, ect.", which is an issue I sorta had with the pacing too.

Hey, something I wanted to ask.

I recall people wanting to see Hugh Laurie as J. Jonah Jameson in the MCU.

Was that because of the "rumored" cast list for the MCU!Spidey movie or was Laurie as JJJ on people's heads earlier than that list?

Either way, still can't go wrong with J.K. Simmons.

edited 28th Nov '15 9:38:35 PM by TargetmasterJoe

I still say that Keith David should do it.

Keith David is an intriguing choice for Jameson.

I approve.

I dunno, J.K.Simmons is tough to beat. XP