Redwall

Just thought I'd start a thread for all the Redwall fans on TV Tropes.

So help me, I still read Mossflower every couple of years. And I never checked out Marlfox, but I've been meaning to, seeing as it's supposed to have the most intrigue.

Wow, it's been years since I read that series. Now I may have to go back to it...

Yeah! Redwall!

I'm surprised that there's no Ron the Death Eater entry for woodlanders in general.

I only have Mattimeo, which I thought was actually the second book in the series (which I had no idea how large it was) until I found tvtropes. The moles were completely awesome, and there were some funny moments.

Other than that, nothing too impressive. It'd also help if I didn't root for the bad guys. Anyone else thinks that Slagar could have been a great character if his backstory was fleshed a bit more and he wasn't just immediately written of as insane, liar and evil?

If you want backstory, Slagar turns up in the first book.

And no, not really. People who kidnap children and sell them as slaves to cults aren't exactly 'great' IMO.

edited 18th Jul '11 11:40:33 AM by ElderAtropos

I've read every book but the last two.

I wonder how Slagar is portrayed in the first book then? That must be when he recovers from his injuries, steals stuff and runs away.

And what can we do, not all great characters can be 'cool'.

Fixed, I was trying to quote you.

He's the son of this mystic the Big Bad hires to...help him...somehow...with taking over the Abbey. Other than that, he's unimportant(except for killing Methuselah).

Besides, he's not interesting in the slightest. He's one of the most 2-dimensional villains in the series.

edited 18th Jul '11 11:45:24 AM by ElderAtropos

Selah (Slagar's mother) was hired by Cluny to heal him after he was injured in an attack on the Abbey, actually. Is it sad that I know that even though I haven't read the book in more than seven years?

Remember, I have only Mattimeo to judge. The other two villains are Captain Birdie The Conqueror and Malkaris The Evil God Wannabe. Slagar, on the other hand, intriguing. His mother died and he got half his face chewed of by a snake when he was a kid. He claims they had tried to help the Redwall guys, and they got imprisoned as a reward. He views the whole kidnapping with the "an eye for an eye" approach. (Not saying that he wouldn't do it anyway, I'm not arguing he is not evil.)

While he is certainly an unrelable narrator, the Redwall kids aren't reliable at all either. In the environment they live in, they're raised as Redwall fanatics. "Redwall protects us from all the evil animal species from the world!" I wouldn't trust what stories they know.

Again, from the perspective of me, who has only ever read that one book.

The kidnapping was really just petty revenge against Matthias and the others, far from being talion. I don't see how that makes him intriguing.

I hear this series got really bad and full of Mary Sues as it went along.

Mary Sues and Unfortunate Implications, to be exact. And more Food Porn than a cooking show.

I thought the second-to-last one was pretty good about it, mainly because the protagonist did very little. But yeah, Eulalia! in particular was bad with the sues.

Unfortunate Implications? Not as many as the fandom likes to act like there are.

edited 20th Jul '11 12:52:21 PM by ElderAtropos

Well, let's see: Always Chaotic Evil, some Moral Dissonance, Taggerung, Outcast, and the fact that that hare was in a wheelchair just because she didn't want to walk badly enough? I'd call that Unfortunate Implications.

I don't see how Always Chaotic Evil can be an unfortunate implication when applied to Funny Animals, not to mention that they are not always chaotic evil. The others are right, though. That's why I said 'not as many as the fandom likes to act like there are', not 'nonexistent'.

And funny animals are different from, say, orcs in that regard how?

I'm not trying to get into a major argument here. But Always Chaotic Evil is an overall problematic trope for a reason. Hell, even the Trope Namer uses it fairly sparingly (or did throughout 3e, at any rate).

I'm not part of "the fandom" (or, for that matter, the hatedom), but I did read the books consistently up to a point. I only recall a very few vermin being portrayed as sympathetic characters.

Then again, I ended up feeling more sorry for Veil than anything else. But that was, in no small part, from how he was treated in-universe. A Heroic Sacrifice proves that he's evil?

edited 21st Jul '11 9:29:00 AM by FarseerLolotea

But the fact that there are even a few good vermin means that they're not Always Chaotic Evil. And, unless there are explicit parallels to real-world ethnic groups or minorities, the trope doesn't really imply anything offensive.

I only read one story.

It involved weasels, uhm, they were in a castle, and all royalty and stuff.

I remember being way more interested about them, than the actual protag.

And that the accents were rather painful.

Well, they do have a variety of gritty, urban British accents.

I was a big fan from when I was 7 until about 16, and the last book I read was Triss. By that time it had started to get a bit same-y. I still read the first few ones every now and then. I used to love the Food Porn, and never really noticed any Unfortunate Implications. But I was pretty young and naive.

Triss. I think that's the one I read. Maybe.

I liked the first few – that's Redwall through Martin the Warrior. After that, I found them all somewhat mediocre.

As someone who has read all of the books:

• Redwall
  • Great Start to the series, Dark, Gritty, cool characters. Must-Read.
• Mossflower
  • Involves Martin. Must Read.
• Mattimeo
  • Okay for a sequel, some good action sequences but otherwise forgettable. So-So.
• Mariel of Redwall
  • The first instance of "Mary Sue." Otherwise, one of the better ones that don't involve Martin or Matthias. Decent.
• Salamandastron
  • This one is iffy. Full of Badassery and intrigue and stuff, but characters seem copy/pasted. Decent.
• Martin the Warrior
  • Involves Martin. Must-Read
• The Bellmaker
  • Has Mariel in it again, but she's not so annoying. Lots of Tragic Backstory, though. One Of The Better Ones
• Outcast of Redwall
  • Unfortunate Implications abound. Also Ho Yay between Badger and Hawk. Still very good, with direct connection to Mossflower. One Of The Better Ones
• The Pearls of Lutra
  • I can't remember anything about it. Forgettable.
• The Long Patrol
  • Still read this one over. Still suffers from Copy/Pasted characters, though. Decent.
• Marlfox
  • Plots and Plans and Tragedies and Daddy Issues and all kinds of crap. One Of The Better Ones
• The Legend of Luke
  • Involves Martin's father. Half the book is wasted on more Random encounters than a D&D Game. Still, if you're interested, go for it. So-So.
• Lord Brocktree
  • Also pretty good. Mostly involved a female Hero being really Badass without being annoying. Decent.
• The Taggerung
  • Like Outcast, but in reverse. Villain shows intelligence by not trying to attack Redwall. Just for that, I rate it Decent.
• Triss
  • Formulaic. Characters aren't Copy/Pasted, but still more annoying than funny. Lots of bad jokes. Avoid Like The Plague
• Loamhedge
  • Formulaic, but the Characters are actually decent this time. Badass Old people Decent
• Rakkety Tam
  • Lots of Badassery, first appearance of a Wolverine, and badass ending fight sequence. Romantic plot thread is kind of bland. Shrews get mistreated. Decent.
• High Rhulain
  • Mary Sues all over. Avoid Like The Plague
• Eulalia!
  • Fuck this book. Preachy and Sue-filled. Kill It With Fire
• Doomwyte
  • Dark and mysterious, lots of death and destruction. A return to the darkish tone of the earlier books. Must-Read
• The Sable Quean
  • Takes the standard "Redwall Formula" and rips it to shreds. Must-Read
• The Rogue Crew
  • Great way to end the series, actually. Not as good as Sable Quean, but still left me feeling good. One Of The Better Ones

edited 14th Aug '11 8:47:49 PM by SalFishFin