Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#136651: Aug 28th 2016 at 7:09:21 PM

@Antiteilchen: It's disingenuous because when you attach the term "slut-shaming" to shaming prostitutes, you're implying that people who object to "slut-shaming" (shaming people who have sex) must also object to opposing sex work. It's an attempt to manipulate the terminology of the debate to force people to agree to definitions that they didn't agree to.

Furthermore, stating the existence of support for a position is not fallacious in a discussion about politics and governance. It is not the Appeal to Popularity fallacy, try again.

@the broader discussion: I can see both sides - there are reasons to ban it, reasons to "legalize, regulate, tax," and reasons for intermediate positions. Sweden, for example, went with criminalizing the purchase but not the sale of sex, on the grounds that they consider prostitution to be inherently exploitative of women. Britain, meanwhile, created an intentional gray area (it's illegal to pimp, but not to buy or sell sex, though the exact law is really damn fuzzy).

And legal prostitution means that abused prostitutes can sometimes go to the cops, but not always. Brothels that employ illegal immigrants and human trafficking victims can hide behind being presumptively legal businesses while using fear to control their slaves, an issue that Germany is struggling with right now.

I'm not saying that a ban is necessarily the best solution. Nevada's system of legalizing prostitution works very well, though it has problems relating to dumb legislation, and Sweden's system is popular there but reports on its effectiveness are somewhat tarnished (as in, interest groups are meddling with the science). But I don't think that "don't ban what consenting adults want to do with their bodies" is applicable to prostitution - like drug policy, there's a legitimate government interest in regulating or banning prostitution. (And as I said, regulating it is a bloody headache to get right, though I'd prefer a functional set of regulations over all other solutions.)

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#136652: Aug 28th 2016 at 7:58:03 PM

Even after the DNC, Trump's hideous comments, the Republicans refusal to disavow him,

HOW can any rational person still make this dumbass argument?!

If you're referring to the "Trump will unify the left and the general population against him and bring about real progressive change through his own Epic Fails" thing, it's unfortunately, a natural thought pattern for certain leftists. They know not enough people agree with them, and they flat out don't want to do the day in, day out grunt work of getting people to get on board and coming around, so they like to imagine scenarios where the other guy will get voted in and fuck things up so badly that then, the people will finally throw up their hands and go full lefty.

Yeah, it didn't work when the German Communists refused to partner with the German liberals against Hitler, and it didn't work in Spain during Franco's era, and the leftists in Iran who fondly imagined that the silly fundamentalists would screw up governing so badly that it would fall right into their hands afterward got bitterly disappointed, (and, y'know, murdered by the government) but it's still a pattern that a lot of people cling to.

Because it's a lot easier to imagine yourself managing to come to the top and be The Cavalry after some disaster than it is to build something piece by piece, step by step to avert a potential disaster, with the possibility of it all being kicked over by a fickle populace. It's a loser's wishful thinking that relies on the same sort of reality detachment that libertarians and anarcho-capitalists have which lets them imagine that if only all the impediments would get out of their way they'd surely rise to the top of society.

A lot of people think a huge societal failure will get society to spontaneously realign itself according to their wishes and ideas. Imagine what they could do if they actually bothered to have a coordinated and ready system built up to back those ideas from the start instead of just hoping that the aimless, confused, desperate people in the face of such a disaster would choose to line up on their side instead of someone else's.

To go back a few pages to a previous discussion:

It's worth noting that legalized prostitution doesn't magically make illegal prostitution go away. If you set up regulatory requirements — like mandating good working conditions, health screening, etc — then there will be people who can't meet those basic standards (or don't want to because doing so drives costs up and lowers their profits) will continue to operate illegally.

the black market doesn't vanish just because of legalization. Not least because for a not-insignificant portion of the clientele the chance to abuse the women, or have sex with minors, or have unprotected sex in a dangerous situation, or what have you, is the attraction.

These are good points, some of which (like the child prostitution) I hadn't considered, and thanks for making them.

However, I think for the most part the black market and abuse will be deeply cut by legalization and regulation. Yeah, there will be people who don't meet standards for health and well being and such, but there's unregulated everything in business. And with legal pot, people have shown to be willing to pay far more for the legal stuff than for the black market stuff. Conveniences like, say, assuring that the sex worker is disease free, isn't going to rob you, (or have their pimp rob you) isn't going to be part of an undercover sting, etc. do make up for a lot of things.

As for issues like the pedophiles and such, I'm sure there are a few workarounds, like people who look much younger than they are. And the people that are catered to by a black market because they want to be free to beat up the worker or have sex with kids can probably be targeted a lot easier by law enforcement, because law enforcement will have far fewer targets to go after and can crack down on the rings that do try to get away with their activities. It's one thing to hide a fish in the ocean, it's another to try to do it in a small pond.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#136653: Aug 28th 2016 at 8:43:01 PM

It's disingenuous because when you attach the term "slut-shaming" to shaming prostitutes, you're implying that people who object to "slut-shaming" ...
The only valid reason to oppose prostitution is to protect the prostitutes. So, shaming the prostitutes is indeed merely born of slut-shaming. I'm not saying everyone opposed to prostitution is a slut-shamer. That would indeed be disingenuous strawmanning. But those who attack prostitutes are. If you want to protect them, either do as the Swedes do or legalize it. Everything else is just moralizing.

Furthermore, stating the existence of support for a position is not fallacious in a discussion about politics and governance
But stating the support for a position to defend said position is. Saying that the majority of people don't want a gay or atheist president, doesn't stop it from being homophobic and atheophobic. Saying people don't want slutty First Ladies doesn't stop it from being slut-shaming.

edited 28th Aug '16 9:08:33 PM by Antiteilchen

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#136654: Aug 28th 2016 at 10:30:44 PM

The only valid reason to oppose prostitution is to protect the prostitutes

That's your opinion. One could also oppose it from the philosophical standpoint that certain services simply should not be in the market, thank you very much—and that the purchase of said services leaves everyone involved in the transaction a worse person than they were beforehand. One could oppose it from the standpoint of protecting other women—there's enough idiots in the world who think that women owe them sex in exchange for money or gifts, and having a class of worker for whom that's literally true may only worsen said attitudes. Etc, etc.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#136655: Aug 29th 2016 at 12:28:37 AM

[up]Yeah, both reasons are stupid and sanctimonious. Got any more?

Every city needs a Hamsterdam.

edited 29th Aug '16 12:29:40 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#136656: Aug 29th 2016 at 5:36:23 AM

Why Did the US Stop Teaching Political History?

American political history, it would seem, is everywhere. Hardly a day passes without some columnist comparing Donald J. Trump to Huey Long, Father Coughlin or George Wallace. “All the Way,” a play about Lyndon B. Johnson, won a slew of awards and was turned into an HBO film.

But the public’s love for political stories belies a crisis in the profession. American political history as a field of study has cratered. Fewer scholars build careers on studying the political process, in part because few universities make space for them. Fewer courses are available, and fewer students are exposed to it. What was once a central part of the historical profession, a vital part of this country’s continuing democratic discussion, is disappearing.

This wasn’t always the case. Political history — a specialization in elections and elected officials, policy and policy making, parties and party politics — was once a dominant, if not the dominant, pursuit of American historians. Many of them, in turn, made vital contributions to the political process itself, whether it was Arthur Schlesinger Jr.’s role in the Kennedy White House or C. Vann Woodward’s “The Strange Career of Jim Crow,” which the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. called the “bible of the civil rights movement.”

But somewhere along the way, such work fell out of favor with history departments. According to the American Historical Association’s listing of academic departments, three-quarters of colleges and universities now lack full-time researchers and teachers in the subject.

There appears to be little effort to fill the void. A search of the leading website advertising academic jobs in history, H-Net, yielded just 15 advertisements in the last 10 years specifically seeking a tenure-track, junior historian specializing in American political history. That’s right: just 15 new jobs in the last decade.

As a result, the study of America’s political past is being marginalized. Many college catalogs list precious few specialized courses on the subject, and survey courses often give scant attention to political topics. The pipelines for new Ph.D.s in the subject, and therefore new faculty, are drying up, and in many graduate programs one can earn a doctorate in American history with little exposure to politics.

How did it come to this? The trend began in the 1960s. America’s misadventure in Vietnam led to broad questioning of elite decision making and conventional politics, and by extension those historical narratives that merely recounted the doings of powerful men. Likewise, the movements of the 1960s and 1970s by African-Americans, Latinos, women, homosexuals and environmental activists brought a new emphasis on history from the bottom up, spotlighting the role of social movements in shaping the nation’s past.

The long overdue diversification of the academy also fostered changing perspectives. As a field once dominated by middle-class white males opened its doors to women, minorities and people from working-class backgrounds, recovering the lost experiences of these groups understandably became priority No. 1.

These transformations enriched the national story. But they also carried costs. Perceived “traditional” types of history that examined the doings of governing elites fell into disfavor, and political history suffered the effects (as did its cousins, diplomatic and military history).

The ramifications extend well beyond higher education. The drying up of scholarly expertise affects universities’ ability to educate teachers — as well as aspiring lawyers, politicians, journalists and business leaders — who will enter their professions having learned too little about the nation’s political history. Not least, in this age of extreme partisanship, they’ll be insufficiently aware of the importance that compromise has played in America’s past, of the vital role of mutual give-and-take in the democratic process.

Change will not be easy, and will not come from history departments facing tight budgets and competing demands. What is needed, to begin with, is for university administrators to identify political history as a priority, for students and families to lobby their schools, for benefactors to endow professorships and graduate fellowships and for lawmakers and school boards to enact policies that bolster its teaching — and without politicizing the enterprise.

This matters. Knowledge of our political past is important because it can serve as an antidote to the misuse of history by our leaders and save us from being bamboozled by analogies, by the easy “lessons of the past.” It can make us less egocentric by showing us how other politicians and governments in other times have responded to division and challenge. And it can help us better understand the likely effects of our actions, a vital step in the acquisition of insight and maturity.

Judging by the state of our political discourse during this dismal campaign season, the change can’t come soon enough.

edited 29th Aug '16 5:37:05 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#136657: Aug 29th 2016 at 5:37:32 AM

On another topic, does what governor Paul LePage said constitute a death threat? Because if so, I don't see why he shouldn't be arrested.

edited 29th Aug '16 6:47:15 AM by speedyboris

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#136658: Aug 29th 2016 at 6:04:53 AM

[up][up] ... Wow, this may actually explain a lot about how the USA government has been since the turn of the century.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#136659: Aug 29th 2016 at 6:11:20 AM

the purchase of said services leaves everyone involved in the transaction a worse person than they were beforehand.
That's, like, textbook slut-shaming. It only works if you think sex is debasing. And it's certainly not the job of the government to enforce people's consensual sex life.
One could oppose it from the standpoint of protecting other women—there's enough idiots in the world who think that women owe them sex in exchange for money or gifts, and having a class of worker for whom that's literally true may only worsen said attitudes.
That's slut-shaming as well. It's punishing the victims instead of the perpetrators. It's the same logic behind forcing women to wear Burkas. There are after all, men who think they're entitled to sexually harass or rape scantily clad women.

You don't eradicate an etitled attitude by removing the source that has been misinterpreted. You educate people instead. Especially since prostitution won't go away anyway.

edited 29th Aug '16 6:12:07 AM by Antiteilchen

megarockman from Sixth Borough Since: Apr, 2010
#136660: Aug 29th 2016 at 6:31:36 AM

For something of a change of pace from ESPN:

Colin Kaepernick: 'I'll continue to sit'

SANTA CLARA, Calif. — San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick sat during the national anthem in each of the team's three preseason games and said he plans to continue to do so until he sees real change when it comes to racial oppression in the United States.

"Yes, I'll continue to sit," Kaepernick said. "I'm going to continue to stand with the people that are being oppressed. To me this is something that has to change. When there's significant change and I feel like that flag represents what it's supposed to represent, this country is representing people the way that it's supposed to, I'll stand."

On Sunday afternoon, Kaepernick spent nearly 20 minutes addressing reporters for the first time since he was spotted sitting between two Gatorade jugs during the national anthem before Friday's game against the Green Bay Packers.

Clearly aware of the backlash he's received since his stance became public, Kaepernick made it a point to clarify that he has nothing against the military.

"I do think that the talk has been more about me, more about I know a lot of people's initial reactions thought it was bashing the military, which it wasn't," Kaepernick said. "That wasn't my intention at all. I think now that we have those things cleared up, we can get to the root of what I was saying and really address those issues."

During the extensive interview, Kaepernick covered a variety of subjects, ranging from his reasoning behind sitting to whether he'll fear for his safety on the road this year to the presidential election.

Kaepernick said his decision to make his stance has been a long time coming and was born of years of both witnessing and being a part of racial oppression.

"It's something that I've seen, I've felt, wasn't quite sure how to deal with originally," Kaepernick said. "And it is something that's evolved. It's something that as I've gained more knowledge about, what's gone on in this country in the past, what's going on currently. These aren't new situations. This isn't new ground. There are things that have gone on in this country for years and years and have never been addressed, and they need to be."

Asked to offer some specifics, Kaepernick cited police brutality in a number of cities that have resulted in the deaths of black men.

Kaepernick recounted a story of one of his college roommates moving out of their house, and because he and his roommates were the only black people in the neighborhood, the police came and drew guns on them.

"I have experienced this," Kaepernick said. "People close to me have experienced this. This isn't something that's a one-off case here or a one-off case there. This has become habitual. This has become a habit. So this is something that needs to be addressed."

Kaepernick said his decision to sit also wasn't made spur of the moment. He cited conversations with other players and influential people, such as Dr. Harry Edwards, as taking place in the time before taking action.

Dr. Edwards, who was instrumental in the protest by U.S. Olympians Tommie Smith and John Carlos at the 1968 Mexico City Olympics, is a 49ers team consultant and shared a hug and brief conversation with Kaepernick before Sunday's practice.

Kaepernick also addressed the team at a players-only meeting that took place Sunday morning.

"They asked me to talk and just explain why I did what I did," Kaepernick said. "And why I felt the way I felt. I had an open conversation with them. I told them why I felt that way and looked at things the way I do. A lot of it has to do with the history of the country and where we're currently at. I opened it up to all my teammates. Come talk to me if you have any questions. If you want to understand what I'm thinking further, come talk to me. It shouldn't be something that should be hidden. These conversations need to happen and can bring everybody closer."

Kaepernick said he has no plans to try to get other players to join him in his protest, citing the attention that goes with making such a move.

"This isn't something I'm going to ask other people to put their necks out for what I'm doing," Kaepernick said. "If they agree with me and feel strongly about it, then by all means I hope they stand with me. But I'm not going to go and try to recruit people and be like 'Hey, come do this with me' because I know the consequences that come with that, and they need to make that decision for themselves."

As for the timing of the protest, Kaepernick said he didn't choose now simply because it's an election year, but he did voice his displeasure with the two presidential candidates.

"You have Hillary [Clinton], who has called black teens or black kids superpredators," Kaepernick said. "You have Donald Trump, who is openly racist. We have a presidential candidate [Clinton] who has deleted emails and done things illegally and is a presidential candidate. That doesn't make sense to me. If that was any other person, you'd be in prison. So what is this country really standing for?"

From a football perspective, Kaepernick said he wants the team focus to be on winning games, but that there's also a time to discuss social issues. Asked whether he thought he could be cut for taking this stance, Kaepernick didn't seem concerned.

"I don't know," Kaepernick said. "But if I do, I know I did what's right. And I can live with that at the end of the day."

Kaepernick also said he has no concerns about potential backlash when he plays in road games this year.

"At the end of the day, if something happens, that's only proving my point," Kaepernick said.

As to where he goes from here, while Kaepernick continues to sit during the anthem, he says there are also plans to do more than symbolically protest.

"There are things that I have in the works right now that I'm working on to put together in the future and have come to fruition soon," Kaepernick said. "Those are things that I'll talk about as we get closer to those days."

A couple of articles following it have detailed other players believing Kaepernick to be disrespectful, including current Minnesota Vikings guard and former teammate Alex Boone.

The transcript of Kaepernick's remarks is here. I first saw this on ESPN's news crawl while watching the Little League World Series final yesterday - the crawl said that NFL policy was that players were encouraged but not required to stand during the anthem.

I don't think he's going to be standing for the anthem for the rest of his career.

edited 29th Aug '16 6:34:43 AM by megarockman

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#136661: Aug 29th 2016 at 6:42:35 AM

The benefit to Kaepernick's actions is going to be how many sports writers/ djs that out themselves as ignorant or racist in response.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#136662: Aug 29th 2016 at 7:07:25 AM

Le Page should be impeached after last week. He's also a great case study for showing how fucking stupid vote splitting is.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#136663: Aug 29th 2016 at 8:10:12 AM

That's, like, textbook slut-shaming. It only works if you think sex is debasing.

Or, alternatively, if you think sex is a beautiful, spiritual thing, and that commercializing it sullies the whole enterprise.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#136664: Aug 29th 2016 at 8:15:05 AM

I'm not really sure saying "This shouldn't be legal because it's potentially very dangerous and could enforce some very unhealthy attitudes" is the same thing as "You're a slut for getting paid for sex."

Like, I don't necessarily buy the first argument as a reason to keep prostitution illegal but isn't that basically the argument for keeping drugs like crack and heroin illegal?

And like prostitution, those drugs aren't just going to go away just because they're illegal, but that's not an argument to make them legal. Again, different situation from prostitution but saying "We can't stop is completely" isn't a particularly compelling argument for legalizing something.

edited 29th Aug '16 8:18:36 AM by LSBK

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#136665: Aug 29th 2016 at 8:18:53 AM

[up][up]Could say the same about any part of culture. Commercial art: much degrade, so awful. Starving Artist isn't an ideal, however romanticised it gets — and commissions have been a thing since Ur and Ancient Egypt were toddlers. Including propaganda and adverts now seen as classic art. <_<

Commercial care provision? Not as good and heartfelt as homecare! And, so on.

Tosh. -_-

edited 29th Aug '16 8:19:51 AM by Euodiachloris

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#136666: Aug 29th 2016 at 8:26:04 AM

Or, alternatively, if you think sex is a beautiful, spiritual thing, and that commercializing it sullies the whole enterprise.

Good point. It is still instilling your perception of sex on others though. And considering it has been used by religion to control women (marriage sex= good and sacred while casual sex= bad and sinful) the result is the same.

Like, I don't necessarily buy the first argument as a reason to keep prostitution illegal but isn't that basically the argument for keeping drugs like crack and heroin illegal?
No. Those drugs are illegal because they themselves are dangerous. The potential argument brought forth wasn't "prostitution in itself is bad" it was prostitution leads to creepy behaviour. It would be like banning alcohol because it leads to drunk driving and abuse instead of just, you know, banning drunk driving and abuse.

It goes after a problem in an indirect way that punishes innocents instead of just going after the problem itself.

Edit:

And like prostitution, those drugs aren't just going to go away just because they're illegal, but that's not an argument to make them legal.
But the argument rested on the idea that the existence of prostitution furthers the perception of entitlement after gifts. That isn't affected by it's legality. Only it's existence.

edited 29th Aug '16 8:30:06 AM by Antiteilchen

carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#136667: Aug 29th 2016 at 8:37:25 AM

I see several news channels are reporting that Arizona and Illinois had their voter databases breached by Russian hackers.

Artificius from about a foot and a half away from a monitor. Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Norwegian Wood
#136668: Aug 29th 2016 at 8:44:08 AM

That there were breachs at all will be enough for the likely loser to cry foul, which he would've done anyway, regardless of Russia's seeming preference for a useful idiot at the con.

edited 29th Aug '16 8:44:56 AM by Artificius

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#136669: Aug 29th 2016 at 8:54:14 AM

God what are we gonna do if it turns out the Russians are genuinely trying to rig our election?

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#136671: Aug 29th 2016 at 9:08:51 AM

I get Arizona, but why Illinois?

megarockman from Sixth Borough Since: Apr, 2010
#136672: Aug 29th 2016 at 9:11:27 AM

Hackers might have tried everywhere but only got into those two states. Or only got detected in those two states.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#136673: Aug 29th 2016 at 9:11:30 AM

The corruption there makes it an easy target?tongue

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#136674: Aug 29th 2016 at 9:19:45 AM

Do the US voting machines also print the ballot containing the voter's ID and the candidate they voted?

Inter arma enim silent leges
megarockman from Sixth Borough Since: Apr, 2010
#136675: Aug 29th 2016 at 9:37:13 AM

That's state-dependent. Mine doesn't (or if it does I've never gotten one).


Total posts: 417,856
Top