Pony Fanfiction Thread

And the difference is?

I mean yeah I know what it is, but the point remains "Oh you can make exceptions in cases where it's something you like" hypocrisy. Or just further proof, hey you can't make broad sweeping generalizations about EVERYTHING, rather then taking everything on it's own merits.

Would you like that I should give you my address, Seraph, that you might come to my home and have your fist accompany those words you've put in my mouth? When I mocked crossovers as being drab and lazy I was being facetious; in fact I was being facetious in both statements, you simply happened to agree with the first one.

I don't personally enjoy a lot of crossover, because I usually find the combination of two disparate universes to be jarring on a personal level, rather than as an indicator of quality. That and having two settings to draw from gives me more things to be bothered about when things are mucked about with(Yes I'm aware that I don't have a huge amount of right to be saying that given what I write, but then again I don't find large, hairy men attractive; you can enjoy being or making something without enjoying consuming that thing).

But conceptual crossovers do not inherently have that feature. If all you're drawing over is a plot or a theme then there's no entanglement of character, no real schism in tones. There is sometimes, but never so often as I feel when looking at a standard crossover.

Moreover, there are so many varieties of crossover in this fandom in particular that it genuinely does benefit from sub-genre-ing. You wouldn't scoff and ask what's the difference between Space Opera, Cyberpunk and Hard Sci-Fi; they all have computers so they're all the same, piss off. There's an enormous difference in the way a story is structure based on how the crossover occurs. Is your character ripped from another dimension? Are worlds colliding? Is it some prat in a suit who happens to look like a character? You might not be able to make sweeping, generalized statements, but you can certainly categorize based on common themes and styles, and then draw conclusions of what things with similar elements will be like.

Of course I'll grant you, it may have been a poor choice of words - conceptual crossover is still a subgenre of crossover, if one I happen to not find quite so odious - but there is a real, definite, demonstrable difference.

That was my point, simply dismissing all of some group, crossovers in this case, as being worthless, or unenjoyable, just any type of broad sweeping generalizations claiming every single example of this is has the same fault is just ridiculous, and then claiming "Oh, except this type of them" just proves that while sounding rather hypocritical.

And yes that came out wrong above as well. Sorry.

The reason you have for not liking them, fair enough, I can see the issues, and you admit it's just a personal preference, not some kind of objective "This is why they suck" so fair enough.

As to being facetious, you should know by now, barring overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I'm going to take the definition of the words you said as what you meant to say and take everything literally.

You are right there are difference types of sub genres with their own inherent trends and pros and cons and overall style, my point is, that just further shows how ludicrous trying to say "All of Genre X sucks" is.

@Midnight: satanic miracles, perhaps

@kegisak: that's similar to why I hate crossovers on principle; they fundamentally violate the Law of Conservation of Detail. In all cases^note Normally I'd qualify this, since there are exceptions to every rule. In this case, the Fiction Identity Postulate says otherwise, a crossover doesn't need to be a crossover to tell its story. The same is true of HiE. The only reason to write one over a regular story is pandering.

Conceptual crossovers/Fusion Fics might display that problem less prominently, but they still have it.

edited 28th Aug '15 8:30:14 PM by CleverPun

I wouldn't say that's necessarily true, just very rare. The exception would be one where the entire point of the story is seeing how the cosmologies of the two works interact with each other, which couldn't be done with OC's. Granted, most of the time it's just Rule of Cool or Wish Fullfillment, but still.

In all casesnote Normally I'd qualify this, since there are exceptions to every rule. In this case, the Fiction Identity Postulate says otherwise, a crossover doesn't need to be a crossover to tell its story. The same is true of Hi E. The only reason to write one over a regular story is pandering.

False, and not just false but, not even trying to hide how little you are even trying false.

First 'regular story' so, crossovers don't count, they have to be shipped off into their own little ghetto versus 'regular' stories, so what is a 'regular' story? A story is a story, period. Second, how the hell could a story, whose basic premise is having two separate 'verses and/or character from them interacting, be the same story without that very premise? Let's see, example, My Little Denarians so please, tell me, how could a story whose basic premise is a group of Fallen Angles either working with, or possessing human hosts traveling to Equestria to bring their own personal Chaos God back to their world, with Harry Dresden pursuing to stop them, and includes rather pivotal aspects of both worlds, including stuff specific to the characters, be the same story without that? So no, it is, in no way shape or form 'all' or even a large portion given, again, the very premise of them is the fact of a crossover.

HIE, same thing, are there some that maybe could, sure, but others where it's a main plot point and important to the story, not even close, let's see, Oh I know, Anthropology could have been just the same if it wasn't about Lyra turning out to have really been a human who ended up in Equestria as a child and was raised as a pony, then wanting to go back to the human world and find her real family. Yeah, nothing about that story required it. Or Through The Eyes Of Another Pony, another one that totally didn't need the core element of what it was. to be, you know what it was.

Law of Conservation of Detail has what to do with that anyway? "Don't bring up details that aren't directly relevant to the story? One, I dispute that in the first place, cause taking time to build up things that aren't directly relevant to the plot can be amazing, and lead to a much larger, more alive feeling world and just make everything grander and feel less like a story, but beside that, okay.... so... what? Those details are rather important to the story, given the story is entirely about these two separate verse's coming together?

Finally, once again the The only reason to write one over a regular story is pandering. line, that is not just BS, it is outright freaking insulting. Oh yeah, the ONLY possible reason is you are just some talentless hack who's trying to pander, cause that's all they can do. Not, you love both series and want to see them interact together, explore how that would work. Have a great idea for a story about the characters or worlds colliding, and overall, assuming that every single, person to ever write one, did so ONLY for the sake of 'pandering' and not, you know, just plain didn't give afuck about that, and simply wanted to tell a story. One that, by it's very nature, required those elements.

ehh? I'm not sure I follow here. Most of the crossovers I've read, well, they would have been drastically different stories if they weren't crossovers. same with most Hi E fics.

I mean, that claim might have some truth to it if you were to break them down to their absolute most basic plot elements. Like if you want to say that all crossovers and Hi E fics are just Fish out of Water fics (which they largely are) and that they don't need to be crossovers/Hi E fics to tell a Fish out of Water plotline, then yeah, you'd be right.

but that's a very silly way of looking at things. Stories are a lot more then the sum of their basic plot elements.

edited 28th Aug '15 9:37:46 PM by Blissey1

They is the gist of what I was referring to, sure; basic plot elements and story construction. Yes, stories are more than the sum of their parts. In the case of Crossovers, however, plot elements from one can detract from the plot elements of the other.

Fallout: Equestria is a good example. (Dear thread; I am using Fallout Equestria as an example of how crossovers are constructed, please dont turn this into another flame war about the fic itself).

People often claim that FOE is one of the examples of how to do crossovers "correctly". Yet every FOE story I've read just feels like a Fallout fanfic with a bunch of extraneous plot elements tacked on (and others removed). This is especially evident in the way that the FOE uses guns (it imports them directly from Fallout with no effort to adapt them to pony physiology) as well as the way it lacks the sort of satirical cultural commentary that is part of Fallout's post-apocalyptic setting.

By crossing over the two settings, there is nothing gained. The construction of the story and world doesn't feel like something greater than the sum of its parts, more like two halves that do not gel into a cohesive whole.

This is a very specific example, but the same is true of most crossovers I've seen. The stories that result from Harry Dresden or Albert Wesker or whomever else popping up in Equestria don't feel naturalistic. They would be better off limiting themselves to one world. The interactions between characters might be a selling point, yes, but most characters are so archetypal that those interactions can be encouraged elsewhere. They do not warrant the sacrifices crossovers must make to get there.

Just to clarify, have you read the original Fallout: Equestria, or just the side-fics? Because what you're describing was not at all my own experience.

Yes, if you break anything down to the most utter, basic levels, you can claim anything once it's been simplified beyond all recognition. Like, all stories are precisely the same because they are all made up of words. Yeah hyperbole and extreme, but same concept, it is the details that matter, it is the basic facts of the story. You can't take out everything that makes something what it is, and then complain about it because of what's left when you do that.

By crossing over the two settings, there is nothing gained.

Ummm, what? You mean, other then a chance to explore something entirely new, seeing how these two worlds and/or character react? Exploring how the characters could play off each other, how ponies would react to these other knowns, or the non-pony characters to Equestria/ponies. A chance to blend two different worlds, it opens up SO many new options to add so much to a story.

The construction of the story and world doesn't feel like something greater than the sum of its parts, more like two halves that do not gel into a cohesive whole.

Once again, prove it. Go through every, single crossover written and explain exactly how this is the case. It's not, in any measure. Can it end up that way? Yes. But it can also, and for damn near every crossover I've read, DOES, create something larger then either. Uses both halves to create something that couldn't be done with either alone. And often in a way that feels perfectly natural for both sides of it. So no, that is not even close to any kind of universal truth.

he stories that result from Harry Dresden or Albert Wesker or whomever else popping up in Equestria don't feel naturalistic

How so? rather then sweeping generalities, give specifics, it is the details that matter, it is the individual, unique aspects of each story that matter, so how, in detail, do they not work in a specific story? Cause both The Dresden Fillies and My Little Denarians made the two mesh really damn well and had a rather good explanation for how the two were able to interact and why they did.

They would be better off limiting themselves to one world.

.... what? No seriously, I do not get this, in the slightest. So, you admit there is more to be gained from crossovers, otherwise, how would not doing so be 'limiting' I.. do not get that, at all.

The interactions between characters might be a selling point, yes, but most characters are so archetypal that those interactions can be encouraged elsewhere.

Wait, again.. what? Yes you can strip everything unique from something and render it down to the most basic archtype, but at that point, why even HAVE characters at all? Hell do it for MLP, Smart Pony, Shy Pony, Fancy Pony, Sporty Pony, Farm Pony, Party Pony. No other characteristics, just those six archtypes, nothing unique about them in the slightest. It is the individual, unique details of the characters that make them what they are. That matter. Take them away, yeah then you can get what you want, but that is your fault for stripping parts away from the character, for ignoring all the unique details, for choosing only to see some broad sweeping, bare bones generalization that removes everything that makes something what it is.

They do not warrant the sacrifices crossovers must make to get there

That 'they' what 'sacrifices' what is lost, what is not gained? You simply cannot treat this like some "Everything is 100% the same with nothing unique and no details of any kind" situation where one statement fits everything. And not even provides an actual account of even one direct time it does support it that can't be debatable.

Also this. Yeah a lot of Side Fics do tend to adhere more to the games and not actually blend the two worlds that well. The original, not even close, it used both aspects of the two worlds very well, blended them into something unique and greater then it's parts. The gun thing? It's ambiguous enough that it's not clear the guns aren't altered, and they did have Battle Saddles for the larger guns. Though yes, I will give you that making it clearer how the guns worked is something it could have done better.

edited 28th Aug '15 10:25:48 PM by Seraphem

I can see what Clever is getting at to some degree. Using the same example, with maybe the exception of the battle saddles, the whole gun thing did distract me. Like, it was vague to the point where it just assumed the reader should know exactly how these things functioned and looked. The end result was I just never got a really clear image of most of them wielding their weapons, which also seriously hampered combat sequences.

As someone who went in without any knowledge of Fallout, I also felt the whole "addition causing subtraction" thing. Like, there was some obvious crossover stuff where I got that it was there, but never felt like it was especially clever, nor engaging enough to make me look it up (which, really, I shouldn't have to do in the first place). This also carried over into stuff where I thought it might be crossed over material, but again, same issue. Given how many of the FiM references were ripped word-for-word, which I felt was ridiculously overly heavy-handed, I did have to wonder if the Fallout stuff ran into the same issue. I've since talked to some friends who are Fallout fans who said, "yes."

That said, I don't feel nearly as strongly as these elements as Clever does. In this particular case, my attention was on much bigger distractions. In the case of other crossovers, a lot of material I've been over is the stuff Pannic has covered, which often has me focused more on trying to decipher the author's intent, since the story's aren't engaging and typically full of errors.

I've finished my latest edit

Honestly, Clever, if eel like that viewpoint applies a lot more for conceptual/setting crossovers that character crossovers. With something like Fo E, I could honestly accept that argument that it may have been a better story (though nowhere nearly as widely popular) as its own original alt version of a post apocalyptic equestria.

but I still feel it doesn't make much sense for character crossover type fics or for some kind of Hi E fics. For instance, the Hi E fics I like most are sci-fi type Trapped in Another World /Aliens Among Us type fics. This type of fic really requires a character not from equestria to function at all. You could argue that everyone should create their own orignal aliens to use and an entire culture for them to come from so you can make cultural comparisons and such (which is a large part of the appeal, imo) but that's asking a whole ton of work from the writers for not much reason.

The only way to do an Trapped in Another World /Aliens Among Us plot is to is either go the Hi E/crossover route, creature your own original non-equestrian species, or do an mlp character caught in an alt universe equestria

the second option is a whole hell of a lot of work, and the third option is largely different kind of story

edited 29th Aug '15 3:02:17 AM by Blissey1

Humans and Crossovers are usually the most obvious ways to tell a certain story, easiest, and frankly the most common, way for a writer to conceptualize the story and easiest for a reader to grasp.

Like, say, you watch a thing, and you like, think, "How would ponies deal with these themes?" You could do a conceptual crossover, I have got a lot of fun with those too, but most people, I imagine, I do it, just transfer the characters wholesale with their themes.

Or maybe they do it cause they think it's cool and they sure hope the readers agree it's cool. In which case, cool? It's all cool.

@Clever/Dr. Luna: I don't know how I got it wrong but it's "suppressed", not "surpressed". (I'm loath to log into Google on a public network.)
. . .
I've reinforced my belief that the only reason I bother with stories where Twilight holds a grudge against Celestia because she supposedly got her friends killed somehow is to see just how OOC one of them or the setting itself has to be to make it work.

edited 29th Aug '15 8:57:03 AM by YamiVizziniX

Except there's lots of sentient species that already exist in FIM's world that would fulfill the same narrative function as a human. Changelings do get used for Alien Among Us plots already, and there's plenty of room for other creatures to be used. The main reason to use a human is to either pander to the audience or Author Appeal, and the awkwardness isn't worth those attempts at verisimilitude.

Google's spell check already caught that, but thanks

edited 29th Aug '15 1:06:57 PM by CleverPun

except not really.

any creature that lives anywhere in equestria is already going to know what magic is. they're most likely already going to know that ponies exist, and very likely know about celestia and luna controlling the sun/moon. They probably already know about other creatures living on equestria as well.

if you use a creature that already exists in equestria, then its not a Trapped in Another World plot anymore. It's just a culture shock type story (why don't we have a culture shock subcategory for Fish out of Water?), perhaps with some City Mouse, Country Mouse, or, as you said, Alien Among Us thrown in

by using a character already native to the setting, you have a completely different type of story.

edited 29th Aug '15 2:15:06 PM by Blissey1

Any particular pre-existing species one uses is going to have baggage that the others don't. For example, changelings. The only canon changelings were spies and parasites, up until they openly invaded Equestria. Ponies have a legitimate reason to fear them. So unless you're going full AU, that paranoia is going to color your changeling-pony interactions to some extent.

Use any creature that's already shown up in the show, and you either have to stick with canon, or justify why you're deviating. Use some other creature from mythology that hasn't appeared in the show yet, and savvy readers will expect you to acknowledge the original mythology in some way.

Humans are slightly different in that you're only limited by what you and your audience believe about human nature. The baggage is the fact that so many crappy writers gravitate to HIE that it's hard for the good stories to get a fair audience.

Someone sufficiently ignorant from a non-Equestrian nation could probably still qualify, though. Failing that, someone from Equestria Girls.

edited 29th Aug '15 2:33:20 PM by KuroiTsubasaTenshi

Except that a lot of HiE stars blatant self-inserts or humans who are explicitly aware of the show—some of the most well-known HiE stories use that as their entire gimmick. The protagonist having knowledge of the setting and of magic doesn't change the way most of those stories or written.

Humans have baggage too; if anything, using a non-human X would give the author more ability to put the reader in their shoes, by contrasting their views with pony ones. Ponies are essentially humans since they are so anthropomorphized, after all.

Using a creature that already exists in Equestria would also solve one of the main problems that HiE stories have; a lack of direction and focus. Most such stories (particularly Trapped in Another World ones) have "returning home" as the ultimate goal. Yet the circumstances of the human's arrival is so contrived that finding a way back usually is too vague, and they resort to puttering about as the human farts around the setting. An Equestrian creature doesn't have to worry about that, and so the story can be more focused.

There's plenty of very alien creatures that we've seen; something like a windigo or the tantabus—something which doesn't necessarily know the way the world works and doesn't really understand ponies—one could cultivate the same sort of feeling without resorting to pandering.

There's lots of ways it could be handled, but human in Equestria is just an inelegant solution. It's an Outside-Context Problem that adds nothing to the story. There might be some situations, like you describe, where the tone and the themes of the story are improved by that, but I highly doubt it.

EDIT: I saw that retracted edit

edited 29th Aug '15 2:34:01 PM by CleverPun

Meta: I don't know if it's really that simple, though. I mean, barring extremely generic John Doe guy, a human from Earth is going to have complex relationships and experiences, not to mention whatever culture or country that he's tied to. This creates expectations that are possibly even more stringent mythology, because people are going to be more familiar with things that go on around them.

yes, and those are bad Hi E fics. I also dislike those types of Hi E fics you're talking about. and I will freely admit that Hi E as a genre has a lot of bad fics. but it's foolishness to argue that the genre is inherently flawed.

I have mentioned this before, but some of the absolute best examples of Hi E are Arrow 18 (which finally finished not so long ago!) and Project: Sunflower. Neither of them have any of those problems, and they are fantastics stories. stories that simply would not work with any creature native to equestria. I'm also a big fan of Written in Dust, although that one isn't so nearly widely regarded as the other two.

edited 29th Aug '15 2:49:04 PM by Blissey1

Clever: Not retracted, so much as moved down. I edited it in with the expectation that the thread would be as slow as it usually is. But then you posted in-between, so I moved it to get its own post.

Add Riverdream at Sunset to the list of HIE and crossover stories that actually do something interesting with the premise, and that intersects the FIM backstory with the crossover's backstory in an interesting way. It's a story that could not work as a non-HIE, non-crossover fic.

@Meta: Man oh man, did I neuter all those reasons.