Subbers becoming weeaboo-ish?

I vote yes. It doesn't take that much effort to learn the meanings of a few goddamn honorifics, no matter what the language.

I too think you should for the most part leave the honorifics as they are in a sub. Obviously, not in something like Fullmetal, though.

As for dubs, I just think it sounds weird. I mean, there are a few a dub can use without making me be like "that's weird", like "sempai" and weirdly enough "-chan" (maybe just because a lot of dubs seem to leave that untranslated), but mostly no. Hearing someone say "-san", for instance, in a dub, would probably jolt me out of my comfort zone.

Then again, for dubs, maybe if they just kept in honorifics I'd get used to it. It's hard to say.

Neutral on honorifics. Frankly, you don't need them most of the time unless a specific point is being made in regards to inappropriate formality or the lack thereof. And even then there are ways to get around it. If a student is calling a teacher without honorifics or with something like -chan, you just have them use their first names or something. You can just drop them usually without bothering to put in the correct equivalent.

In pure text format like with visual novels (assuming that you don't listen to every line instead of just reading it and then moving on) it can be a decent indication of respect levels, however. I note that Da Capo II doesn't do anything to indicate that Minatsu refers to people with 'kisama,' though that of course is not an honorific.

Neutral on honorifics as it applies to subs, as I can just hear what they're saying if it's not the subs, and honorifics would sound weird in dubs, but in manga or pure text or what have you, it's preferable if they're there.

When you're forced to choose between having to work at little harder to understanding and losing content entirely, the former is better, as long as it's nothing too major.

My stance on having honorifics in dubs is variant on the show actually.

Want a good laugh? Read TV Nihon translations.

Swear to god they will say things like "momotaros tatchi" or "kisama tatchi"

Its annoying as hell.

The German translation (that is, the official, not a fansub) of Magister Negi Magi is very inconsistent. On one hand they use honorifics (although they seem to be inconsistent here too) and left "Paipan", of all things, untranslated, on other hand they even translate English terms, like "Magical Girl" (even though they are called that in German too and not "Magische Mädchen"). But in one case it's even better that they do that, as "Tausendmeister" sounds much better than "Thousandmaster".

I'm in favor of keeping honorifics, at least in subs and manga.

There's a word in German for paipan?

@Eternal September: That's completely different, what you're talking about is people speaking English that purposely choose to pepper it with foreign words, like Poirot Speak or Terminator II's “Hasta la vista.” For most anime translations, either it's Translation Convention and the characters are actually supposed to be speaking Japanese, or the original broadcast's use of Japanese is itself supposed to be Translation Convention for another (sometimes fictional) language rather than the characters ever actually speaking Japanese.

Leaving in honorifics or any trace of Japanese is, simply put, sloppy and lazy translation that would be rejected in any other medium.

The only time leaving untranslated Japanese in is justifiable is when it fits thematically as in-character Gratuitous Japanese under any language, like Soul Society in Bleach: The Quincy are thematically germanic, so everything related to them is in Gratuitous German; the Hollows Mexican, so they get Gratuitous Spanish; thus it actually makes sense that Soul Society, a setting that's essentially feudal Japan, promulgates Gratuitous Japanese.

I'm just going to leave this here because lulz.

Maybe if he opened his eyes, he'd see they were riceballs.

1. I was explicitly talking about both foreign settings in english works, AND in foreign works with english translations. The two examples that I named from the top of my head happen to be from the former category, but the latter is still common. Even if localization of honorifics sometimes happens in every language's translation, it is on the same level as other extreme wooleyisms, like localizing character names, or foods, in the above pokemon example: it might be necessary in cases when the target audience wouldn't understand it, but other than that, it is a disturbing, pointless twisting of the original.

You say, that a japanese character is allowed to be called "-san" in an english-original work, but unless his japaneseness is an important plot point, it must always be localized in a japanese work's translation. This makes sense how, exactly?

What about the idea that translations are supposed to be as semless and unobtrusive as possible? How is it unobtrusive to use a forced, unnatural honorific, for example Japanese people in Japan referring to each other as "Mr.", (even though it is understood by everyone that the honorific is supposed to be -san), just because the work happens to be a translation, and not an original english work, that would be allowed to keep the normal "-san" honorific?

It makes sense because the character is actually supposed to be inserting a Japanese word into a language that isn't Japanese, as opposed to somebody speaking Japanese translated for the gaijin audience's benefit which mysteriously fails to translate certain words.

What.

There's a difference between the idiocy of what TV-Nihon does, and acknowledging that works produced by a certain culture are going to have elements that may not translate perfectly to other languages, and some aspects of the original language may need to be preserved for the most accurate translation.

Especially when translating into a language that doesn't have as many subtle distinctions in people interact with each other.

The problem is with modern subs is that most subbers ARE unprofessional. The point of subs are to give the felling that you were watching the show in your native language without intruding on the show itself. They use cheesy effects and completely useless tl notes to make their E-penis bigger.

Except a large number of anime fans don't want their subs like that.

Look, anime subtitles, especially fansubs, ARE NOT MEANT FOR A GENERAL AUDIENCE. Yes, there are stupid extremes (the afore mentioned TV-Nihon, that silly UMI DA!!!! manga scanlation), but most anime fans don't want the Japaneseness completely extracted from the show. The only reason we even watch with subtitles is because we don't understand Japanese!

"For fans, by fans".

But if you dont understand japanese why would you want to keep it in? Some weeaboos WANT it in because they want to "learn" japanese and have a alternative to "sucky" dubs.

edited 22nd Jun '11 8:04:01 AM by jayday12345678910

hehehe

oops

In the end, it still leads to inconsistency, with the same logic, you could even say that characters of western works are allowed to talk about "manga", to signify that they are talking japanese, but if Anime characters talking about them, it must always be translated as "comic books".

Or that films taking place in ancient Rome are allowed to say "Ave Caesar", but latin texts must always consistently replace it with "Hail Caesar".

If any english text is allowed to contain these "foreign" terms, they are not as foreign as you make them out to be, to begin with: if a phrase is well-understood by the general population, it is already a loanword. For example "Sensei" is even listed in Merraim-Webster as one, just like Ave, or Manga are.

Even less popular ones, like -chan, or -sama, are well understood, even if not in the mainstream population, but in their intended audience. Those should be left in anime subtitles, even if not in movie dubs.

Translators don't "mysteriously fail to translate" words. In the same way as they know that "Manga" could potentially be translated as "Comic book", "Otaku" roughly means something similar to "Nerd", or the first name "Akane" could be translated as "Rose", they are also aware that Mr. and Mrs. are the english equivalents of -san.

You pretend that they just roll a dice at every word, whether or not to translate it, as it is seen in the most extreme parodies of subbing, showed by Gag Subs and Troll Subs, while in fact, they make conscious decisions, not to translate "Manga", "Otaku", "Akane", or "Sensei", but translate other words, that are less obvious loanwords.

edited 22nd Jun '11 8:10:59 AM by EternalSeptember

Because I understand Japanese? Or, at last, honorifics? And because it gives a more authentic feeling, for works setting in Japan.

Anyway, some Daniel is allowed to be called Daniel-san in some English speaking US movie, but an authentic Japanese work is not allowed to do the same. Yes, this make sense.

edited 22nd Jun '11 8:13:27 AM by Heatth

I prefer my subs to retain some exclusively Japanese idioms with translating: I understand enough of the language for the subs to be there as a safety net, and it just wouldn't feel like I'm watching anime if it's been over-translated. For example, in some subs of Jigoku Shoujo Enma-Ai is called Hell Girl, and in others she's referred to as the titular Jigoku Shoujo. I prefer the latter, simply because I know what 地獄少女 means.

It's an entirely subjective thing, but this is why you choose a subgroup who can cater to whatever your particular taste is.

edited 22nd Jun '11 8:32:26 AM by zeroplusalpha