First thing's first: KEEP. THIS. SHIT. CIVIL. If you can't talk about race without resorting to childish insults and rude generalizations or getting angry at people who don't see it your way, leave the thread.
With that said, I bring you to what can hopefully be the general thread about race.
First, a few starter questions.
- How, if at all, do you feel your race affects your everyday life?
- Do you believe that white people (or whatever the majority race in your area is) receive privileges simply because of the color of their skin. How much?
- Do you believe minorities are discriminated against for the same reason? How much?
- Do you believe that assimilation of cultures is better than people trying to keep their own?
- Affirmative Action. Yea, Nay? Why or why not?
Also, a personal question from me.
- Why (in my experience, not trying to generalize) do white people often try to insist that they aren't white? I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm not white, I'm 1/4th English, 1/4th German, 1/4th Scandinavian 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/8th Russian," as though 4 of 5 of those things aren't considered "white" by the masses. Is it because you have pride for your ancestry, or an attempt to try and differentiate yourself from all those "other" white people? Or something else altogether?
edited 30th May '11 9:16:04 PM by Wulf
United Earth
It was very one-sided against Jefferson...
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
The best Jefferson got in was that he tried to stop the importation of slaves into Virginia from Africa back when it was still a colony. He didn't mention that that particular bit of legislation was shot down by Britain, so it's not like that accomplished much. Otherwise, that was indeed the most lopsided battle I've ever watched.
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Eh, Jefferson was a scumbag with no real redeeming qualities. I'm not bothered.
Oh really when?
Anyway, I liked the battle, was very sophisted as hell which is weird when the topic of slavery show up, not bad, not bad at all
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
He invented the swivel chair though Garcon, the foundation of modern lazzyness.
Seriously though, I know nothing about him besides that....
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Basically all the small government, anti federalist, anti regulation, anti civil rights, and general dickishness can be traced back to Jefferson's influence.
So yeah, he's a real scumbag who's done a hell of a lot to ruin this country.
Oh really when?
He was an advocate for freedom of the press, the person responsible for the separation of church and state clause in the Constitution, and was open-minded enough about religion in his day to keep a Quran around for personal reading, so there's that.
Anyway while he wasn't the greatest person, I take his libertarian views were shaped by the fact that most of Europe was still run by monarchies at the time (as seen by his support for the French Revolution). Which would make him Fair for Its Day, even if Society Marches On and a lot of people in the current era invoke him for extreme beliefs, a lot of which he would not agree with. Particularly all the Religious Right stuff. As a Deist, evangelical Christians like Ted Cruz would probably give him an aneurysm.
edited 30th May '16 2:20:25 PM by AlleyOop
V
Self-Thumped [Too Much Sarcasm].
edited 30th May '16 2:12:29 PM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
The more I hear, the more I get the feeling you guys founding fathers were all dicks.
They're definitely apotheosized way too much by the American right wing. Bioshock Infinite is a little Anvilicious but otherwise not wrong in how a lot of Americans treat them. And a lot of them had myopic, outdated views that overlook a lot of the plight of the common citizens of their country. Especially when it came to race or class-based issues since many of them were elites or came from agrarian backgrounds.
But it should be kept in mind that a lot of them were what would be considered the liberals or even radicals of their era, so they were very Fair for Its Day. So yes, a lot of them were dicks with a lot of views that are backwards by our standards, and maybe even theirs, and a lot of them did shitty things like own slaves or keep them as mistresses in Jefferson's case (even worse, she was his wife's half-sister), but not outrageously more than any other famous historical person would be. History's not black and white like that.
Also, they weren't necessarily as exclusionary as modern-day traditionalists like to interpret them as, given multiple states had provisions in their charter for non-Christian politicians including explicit mentions of Jews, Muslims, and atheists since the US became independent. Something rightwingers found out the hard way when they tried to invoke them in opposition to Keith Ellison's appointment to Congress.
edited 30th May '16 3:08:43 PM by AlleyOop
The law in the night
So another case of applying modern day standards to people who have been dead for like 300 years ago. Yeah, no one is going to find them to be paragons of pure pureness. It would be very hard to find a single historical figure who did noble or great feats but didn't held beliefs that would be seen as backwards today. You name it, race, religion, sexism and homophobia, it is hard to find someone who was progressive in all of those 50 years ago let alone 300.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Jefferson's rep has worsened over the years because the country has progressed more closely to match his words than his deeds. His work to expand sufferage to people beyond property owning white men, while radical at the time, falls way short of his high minded ideals since it only got rid of the property owning part.
A lot of his actions to limit federal oversight can be attributed to the fear of a reversal to monarchy, and one only has to look at the outcome of the French Revolution to see why it wouldn't be hard to fear that, but they're also undoubtedly stapled together with his own regional interests, which are very much stapled to slave holding interests.
Jefferson, intentionally or not, attached himself to the forces of slavery and secession, which colors all his previous achievements as dishonest and hypocritical.
Hamilton never made any bones about the fact that he was an elitist who wanted the rich elite to run the country. Adams freely acknowledged he could be a jackass. People are willing to overlook Washington's failings because of his unique position and his last minute attempt to make amends to his slaves. Jefferson said one thing and did another. It's one thing to be a historical figure with failings, it's another to flat out practice the opposite of what you preach.
Heh, "colors".
Immanentizing the eschaton
A lot of the Founding Fathers also had ideas that wouldn't be embraced by the Republican Party today, particularly Thomas Paine:
I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
—
The opinions I have advanced ... are the effect of the most clear and long-established conviction that the Bible and the Testament are impositions upon the world, that the fall of man, the account of Jesus Christ being the Son of God, and of his dying to appease the wrath of God, and of salvation, by that strange means, are all fabulous inventions, dishonorable to the wisdom and power of the Almighty; that the only true religion is Deism, by which I then meant, and mean now, the belief of one God, and an imitation of his moral character, or the practice of what are called moral virtues – and that it was upon this only (so far as religion is concerned) that I rested all my hopes of happiness hereafter. So say I now – and so help me God.
Dissing on the Bible and private property – the true American way.
edited 30th May '16 4:52:17 PM by majoraoftime
Hell, Adam Smith had views that modern-day Republicans would decry as uncapitalist.
Was Paine a Founding Father? I thought he was just a writer who inspired the Founding Fathers. A Founding Grandfather, if you will.
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Amused
Y'know I never really liked how when I was younger that they would basically leave a whole a lot of details out of the equation for these old historical figures. A lot of them did some really bad things back in there times. At the very least knowing that historical figures have always had flaws is much more interesting then getting this very whimsical recollection of events.
Formerly known as Bleddyn And I am feeling like a ghost Resident Perky Goth
Yankee Doodle Dandy
Snoop Dogg rails against 'Roots' in expletive-filled video.
"I don't understand America. They just want to keep showing the abuse that we took hundreds and hundreds of years ago. But guess what? We're taking the same abuse," he says. "Think about that part. When you all going to make a (expletive) series about the success that black folks is having. The only success we have is Roots and 12 Years A Slave?"
edited 31st May '16 4:10:10 AM by Demonic_Braeburn
Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.
Wasn't The Cosby Show that series? I mean, I know everyone wants to forget it was ever a thing after recent events, but I remember it being about a black family that was pretty well-off.
Still, though, I can understand where Snoop is coming from now that I'm watching the video. Seeing movie after movie or show after show where your people are constantly getting screwed over has to be tiring/frustrating.
edited 31st May '16 4:18:06 AM by PhysicalStamina
United Earth
Voted-For-Reagan-Twice Philip Banks' method was fairly ugly, if realistic: "You police are relatively privileged and powerful, but, as it turns out, I am more privileged and powerful than you now, so do as I say".
edited 31st May '16 8:55:41 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Jupiterian Local
You know, it rather belatedly occurs to me that The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air was a surprisingly racially-conscious series for a kids show in the 90s. I watched it as a middle class white kid and it was probably my first introduction to racial issues as a day-to-day life thing rather than history (like slavery and the Civil Rights Movement). One episode that stands out in my head even now is Will and Carlton driving somewhere and getting pulled over for, essentially, driving while black. Will (who has dealt with this sort of thing before) tries to coach Carlton (who is driving) through things, but Carlton (who hasn't dealt with anything like it before) blows him off and gets them both in trouble. IIRC, he gets them arrested after telling the officer that the car they're driving isn't theirs (it's a rental).
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Writer, Artist, Ignored
That show still holds up really well. I agree, it was one of my first introductions to racism as a kid. It helped me deal when prejudice came my way. I'm both a sexual and a religious minority. It's not exactly the same, but it's similar enough that I can understand where it's coming from.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
I can sorta see his point. I know I always dreaded when we were assigned 80s or 90s books about racial minorities in the US during school reading, because they were always the same damn formula over and over again, except with a few name swaps according to the culture.
While awareness of social issues is definitely important, there's more to the experience of being a minority than perpetual victimhood. Not to mention we're plenty capable of being oppressive or closeminded ourselves and a lack of privilege is never a good justification for it. Just let us have a chance to be regular people in fiction, rather than only allowing stories where we're some sort of inspirational figure to enlighten people about prejudice and the immigrant struggle.
Hello, topical Epic Rap Battle of History. (Slavery and America, discussed and debated in rap form.)
Edit: Oh hey, a pagetopper. Second edit: Also, mild flashing lights warning near the end.
edited 30th May '16 12:12:02 PM by TotemicHero
Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)