General Star Wars Animated Series

It was an explanation in the books for why there are zero non-human Imperials in the movies. So yes, it is present in the films, but not in an obvious way.

The books also had Dooku as a closet racist which was never evident onscreen. Given how the Empire seemed perfectly fine with employing alien and even independent droid bounty hunters and conspiring with Hutts, and how alien rebels only turned out for ROTJ, I consider it a budget issue. Even Kallus sticks to a formal "citizen" address, and he depopulated a planet with impunity. And he readily answers to the alien Inquisitor. Who in turn seems well accepted by the female minister, and she herself was no less polite to the Aqualish diplomat. In general, speciesism appears to be either not official policy, or not much of an issue at all. Considering its treatment of impoverished and unprivileged humans, the Empire comes off as an equal-opportunity oppressor.

edited 15th Nov '14 12:39:08 PM by indiana404

I think the only reason Mas Amedda keeps a position similar to his old one is because A) he struck me as just as corrupt as Palpatine in the few scenes we saw him in, B) he manipulated Jar-Jar into making the motion that made all this possible, and C) Amedda's probably had his mouth surgically implanted onto Palpatine's backside since before the Clone War.

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great

Mas Amedda was a dick every time we saw him in TCW. I don't think of him as necessarily evil in the same way as Palpatine, but his politics seem super hardline.

And Palpatine isn't one to abide mere boot-lickers - he has no use for such, and he'd see right through it anyway. It's more like Amedda's there on his own merit, corrupt as it is, and the tone of the Holonet news report implies he's highly regarded in official terms. So yeah, the Empire's evidently going for the Equal-Opportunity Evil approach. The female governor and minister of Lothal, and the opportunistic would-be captain in the tie-in novel also imply no official sexism among the upper echelons, even if all the grunts seen so far are male. Speaking of which, I hope they get some more varied models for officer extras - the permanently cap-peak-shaded identical twins are starting to creep me out.

All in all, it seems canon is heading toward the more traditional "ugly aliens bad, cute aliens good" approach, only with Rodians now making the good guy cut. Given the average subtlety of animated shows, if any other discrimination undertones were meant to be in play, they'd be more than obvious by now. By the way, does anyone else find it funny how Jedi Outcast made Rodians snipers after the most prominent member of the race was demoted to being a worse shot than even the Stormtroopers?

edited 15th Nov '14 1:48:24 PM by indiana404

Let me frame how evil I think Mas Amedda is this way:

Palpatine is super cloak-and-dagger. Like, he orchestrated a war where he was in control of both sides in order to become Emperor of the Galaxy, and that's leaving aside the fact that he's the Dark Lord of the Sith. His evil is all about schemes, and plots, and occasionally shooting lightning out of his hands. There's a feeling that his evil is in service to a greater goal; that being Emperor is part of some grander Sith design.

Mas Amedda ain't got none of that shit going for him. He's on board with Palpatine ruling over the Galaxy with an iron fist because he legitimately thinks it's a good idea. This guy looked at the situation, not knowing that the Chancellor was an evil space wizard, and went "Yes. This is in line with my political interests."

I think his lack of surprise at the start of the Palpatine vs. Yoda duel implied that he did know Sheev was an evil space wizard, possibly all along, and wasn't deterred by that in the slightest. Gotta give him points for consistency.

Apparently, a Clone Wars role-playing manual contained the fact that Amedda did find out about Palpatine's true identity...after the Clone Wars had already started. The whole "grant him emergency powers" thing? Still in the dark about it then.

Thinking about it, since Palpatine in the prequels is apparently half-Nixon, Mas Amedda basically tricking Jar-Jar into voting Palpy dictator-for-life, is that the sort of thing Space Kissinger would do?

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great

No No don't go there.....Henry Kisenger is far uglier than Mas Amanda

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.

It wasn't a question of appearance, it was a question of behavior.

Tell that to Ventress, Vizsla, Bo-Katan, Almec, Savage or Barriss.

edited 16th Nov '14 12:35:02 AM by Werebazs

Fair enough, though half of those got grayer overtime rather than remaining dedicated antagonists, while Bariss Offee had a last second Face–Heel Turn that could have used more in-depth development. Then again, this is the one franchise where suddenly turning evil is treated as a basic attribute of The Dark Side. Still, Filoni shows have the tendency of characters meant as straightforward villains - be it Zhao, Long Feng and the Firelord, or Trench and Sanjay Rash - to receive little characterization otherwise. It's usually dead obvious as to who isn't meant for a complex presentation. As Kallus has been revealed as a planet-killer already, I think he's heading in that direction as well. Dollars against rubles that even the Inquisitor will receive a better treatment than him. And Maketh Tua is a given in any case.

That's actually really another staple of Star Wars. Did Tarkin have any complexity in ANH? Or Boba Fett in TESB? Or Jabba and Palpatine in ROTJ? How about Gunray, Dooku, and Grievous? All without Legends of course.
Regarding Zhao I'm not sure how much input Filoni had on him. He was only an episodic director on ATLA, not a headwriter or supervising director. However, he almost certainly didn't have anything to do with Long Feng and Ozai, since he only worked on Season 1.

edited 16th Nov '14 5:03:01 AM by Werebazs

I live and learn then. Though, speaking of Legends, I'm still bothered by how some of the grayer issues around the main conflict were snapped even more black-and-white than in the movies. For instance, before TCW, clones were known as singularly obedient yet morally ambiguous allies with a mutual distrust regarding most of the Jedi; their betrayal wasn't far fetched given their loyalty to Palpatine rather than to their direct commanders; and their service to the Empire wasn't an immediate evidence of evil. One brainwashing chip later, and the clones became mostly goody-two-boots mind-controlled throughout the purge, and retired soon after so as not to have them fight the new rebel heroes. And I've noted before how Anakin's generic hero attitude at the start of the show clashed greatly with him already having slaughtered an entire village.

Otherwise yeah, make that "a (non-Zahn) Star Wars villain expressing appreciation for anything other than wanton destruction". The Mandalorians and the Dathomiri were as gray as canon would allow; but when it comes to the mainline conflict, I've yet to see the likes of Thrawn. I'm guessing someone who is both reasonable and suave in their authority, and willing to go to vicious extremes to accomplish their goals, is a risky proposition for film, let alone an animated series. Too much of a chance that impressionable fans might base their cheers around the former, while consequently justifying the latter. For all of Weisman's involvement, I don't think a new Xanatos is on the menu here. Still, the Inquisitor has yet to start kicking puppies at random, or kill his own men like Kallus, so there is some suspense left for him. If Ventress could reform on popular demand, it's not that far-fetched for him either.

edited 16th Nov '14 6:41:24 AM by indiana404

Werebazs: You missed Talzin. :P

On the otherhand the same author who established most of this, had a ridiculous amount of hatred for the Jedi, and made sure that they looked like even bigger jerks and buffoons than in the movies.

I don't think the two clashes that much. By the time of the tusken slaughter Anakin had been suffering from sleep deprivation and worries about his mother for weeks, was rather confused by the whole Padmé affair, and had tons of built-up frustration because of his disfunctional relationship with Obi-Wan. All of this fueled in to his Roaring Rampage of Revenge, which exploded far beyond "rightful" vengeance. The Anakin in TCW is far more stable because most of these issues got resolved by the time the series starts: he's a Knight, so the tense Master-Apprentice relationship between him and Obi-Wan could evolve into a friendlier one. He has Padmé to "return to home to" (yeah I know how that sounds). He finally feels like he's doing something about the corruption plaguing the Galaxy, and feels like he gets the recognition he deserves. He has Ahsoka to look after. And of course as we learnt in "Overlords" he does feel like sh*t about the tusken slaughter. All of these combined add up to a far less stressed-out, and far more collected Anakin, than the one seen in either AOTC of ROTS.\\

edited 16th Nov '14 7:36:06 AM by Werebazs

Oh, and Cad Bane. Mustn't forget about him.

Really, there's a lot of villains that are interested in more than wanton destruction.

You mean Cad Bane the amoral child-kidnapping mercenary who'd shoot a guy literally at the drop of a hat? I don't recall him petting the dog or admiring anything not violence-related anywhere in the show. Hondo's a better example, but he was more chaotic neutral than anything - though that is a rare accomplishment for the franchise.

About Skywalker, I still prefer the laconic and uneasy Anakin of the first CW cartoon who naturally flowed into the events of ROTS. Speaking of which, the films being light on in-depth characterization as they were, a lot of ambiguities could have been kept and developed, rather than expunged. Regarding the clones, I was referring to the Battlefront II storyline rather than anything by Traviss. The reveal about them basically being easily controlled meat puppets took a lot away from the narrative of a good republic slowly devolving into an oppressive force, complementing Anakin's turn into Darth Vader. Instead, it became a flip-of-a-switch evil too blatant even when put against the Dark Side's corruption. The additional development that, apparently, they've been all but completely supplanted by the time of the rebellion, further turned them into a single-use disposable army of no greater consequence than the droids they fought.

Still, good news for anyone wanting to play only Light or Dark side in future Battlefront skirmish games in both timelines, without remorse about fighting would-be or ex-comrades.

edited 16th Nov '14 8:39:32 AM by indiana404

You do know what "wanton" means, right? Bane is amoral, but his actions are always in service to the job. He's efficient. He won't do anything he isn't being paid for.

Or getting a hat for. Then again, it was a nice hat. And the Ithorian tried to shoot first anyway.

edited 16th Nov '14 8:43:24 AM by indiana404

I feel that I should point out that TCW at least acknowledged that the clones were slaves, thus casting the Jedi in a darker light even as it cast the clones in a brighter one. Granted, as far as I can see the series never focused on that too much, but at least it was acknowledged.

Also, showing the clones as being chipped was in a way a bit more logical. It gave a reason for the clones to turn against the generals they worked side by side with for the orders of a higher up that logically had the potential to be faked. It allows the clones to be developed as people and individuals (because that's part of the draw for having clones over droids- independent thinking so they can make better strategies and adapt better) and still have Order 66 happen without any apparent dissent or hesitation as it did in Rot S.

The 501st is the only legion that could have gotten away with not being chipped and following orders, because of a negative experience with Krell and Anakin having turned.

My AO3

The clones were slaves, but they were slaves of the Republic, and commissioned by the Sith. For all their faults, the Jedi weren't responsible for that... they had their own child soldiers to send into battle. Still, it is fairly ironic how the good Republic willingly used a slave army, while the evil CIS and the Empire field low-sentient drones and volunteers, respectively.

Regarding the chips, the clones were already noted for being genetically engineered to be obedient to a fault. That was explanation enough for the films, games and novels, while still allowing for character development. In the show, though, I consider it more of a cop-out so as not to cause emotional backlash and uncomfortable ambiguity as to just how heroic the clones really were. In short, the chip shot first.

The chip comes directly from Lucas's drafts for EP 2, it's not a creation of TCW. I also kind of doupt that Palpatine who meticulously planned out every step, would leave the cornerstone of his great design to something as mallable as will and loyalty. He is the kind who'd prefer the granted effect of pushing of a buttom.