Character trope rename: The Libby

I know the arguments against renaming. Please read this whole post.

It makes little sense for us to name The Libby after the character "Libby" from Sabrina The Teenage Witch. The trope existed long before the series and continues long after. The series entry says Libby's "quite probably the best example" but does not elaborate — unsurprising, because she's not an especially notable example, much less the most triumphant one. She's evidently not significant enough to get the page image. She was even written out of her TV series less than halfway through its run.

Nonetheless, the trope name works. Many wicks. Many inbounds. No misuse. It might work especially well because "Libby" sounds like a common noun. And yet naming the page "Libby" also offers us a unique problem.

Libby is a real name. It's a common name - the trope page even feels the need to mention half a dozen irrelevant Libbys in the media because so many exist. It's a name with no negative connotations, and with no common associations to any one fictional character. Yet in compiling a list of bitches and giving them the name "Libby," we're linking the name with something bad.

We don't otherwise name tropes, especially negative tropes, after common names. It's the Ted Baxter, not The Ted. It's Leisure Suit Larry, not The Larry. It's The Urkel, but definitely not The Steve.

I think when we name and document tropes, we hope that the name enters common usage even outside the site. Sometimes, that indeed happens. If that happens in the case of Libby, we will have done harm.

Let's rename the trope to one of its redirects. "Queen Bee" or "Alpha Bitch." "The Libby" could stay as a redirect, but I will, if we rename, personally update all 2,000 wicks within 2 weeks.

We also would need to rename the several tropes that incorporate "Libby", such as Lovable Libby, Knifing The Libby In The Back and Libby My Old Friend. These are all, in any case, bad names that depend on knowledge of the meaning that we assigned the original term.

Does anyone have any reasons why The Libby is a good name? I can't think of any.

(Edits:)As I noted above, stats say the name currently works. That does not mean the name is good. Stats provide evidence when bad names fail, but they cannot prove that good results depend on a trope's current name. A sufficiently universal trope will gain wicks with even an awkward name, and users will learn to use the awkward name from seeing it in so many links. We can, however, reason which names are objectively good independent of such evidence.

In general, incidentally, I think we put far too low a burden on those who defend the status quo. Though I totally agree that we must justify changes, if that justification convinces everyone that, for instance, "we'd never accept that name today," the burden should shift to the other side. Though "we'd name it differently" isn't one of the standard renaming criteria, that's because we'd only "definitely name it differently" if we see some other independent flaws with the name. We evidently see some in this case

I find that we really overstate the problems of entrenchment - yes, we may have used used a name or a format for years, but that isn't really very long at all. Assuming society itself lasts (never a sure bet), we plan for this site to remain for decades or centuries. We expect that most people who'll use this site in five years haven't even heard of us yet. So opposition to change is often more about the inconvenience of changing personal habits than fears about how well the site will work long-term.

Libby is indeed far more common a name than "Urkel." The current page for The Libby even feels the need to end by listing several Libbys, with the last link a Wikipedia disambiguation page. (On Wikipedia, "Urkel" redirects to "Steve Urkel.) Googling "Libby" yields nearly 20 million results, with Libby from Lost as the top one. "The Libby" appears on page 2; I went through the first 20 pages without seeing any mention of Sabrina The Teenage Witch. Urkel has about a million results, but of the first 20 pages, all but 4 of the results were about Steve Urkel. The other four were a DJ's name, a virus and two pages about a marijuana blend.

(I still haven't figured out how to add replies to a thread, so look back to this post for responses. Nope, "Add a post" opens a blank page for me. I use Chrome, Firefox and Internet Explorer.)

edited 25th Mar '11 1:51:16 PM by Routerie

I don't see the point, so no. And yes, I did read your entire post.

^^There's a button underneath the thread that says "Add a Post". This will allow you to add a post.

I see no pressing need for a rename.

Pretty much one of our Tropes Of Legend don't see a point to rename.

I wouldn't mind a rename to one of the redirects myself, but yeah, you're going to be met with some... opposition for this, seeing as this is a "Trope of Legend" and all.

I recall this sinking like the Titanic last time it came up. There's a very compelling case both to rename and to keep the name, and in such cases Status Quo Is God may prevail.

If I understand the argument correctly... you want to rename it because if this becomes too popular it might adversely affect real people who happen to be named Libby? Is that correct?

Here's the thing. You're proposing a rename. That means that the onus is on you, and the other people who support renaming it, to provide convincing reasons to rename it, not that those who don't want to have to convince you that it shouldn't be.

Taking your points in order:

• "Nonetheless, the trope name works. Many wicks. Many inbounds. No misuse. It might work especially well because "Libby" sounds like a common noun. And yet naming the page "Libby" also offers us a unique problem. "
  • That's a big, big argument against renaming it. That is, in fact, the very first entry under "When NOT to rename" on the Everything You Wanted To Know About Changing Names page. You are going to have a very uphill battle to overcome that. So let's look at your other points and see if you can make it up that hill...

• Libby is a real name. It's a common name - the trope page even feels the need to mention half a dozen irrelevant Libbys in the media because so many exist. It's a name with no negative connotations, and with no common associations to any one fictional character. Yet in compiling a list of bitches and giving them the name "Libby, " we're linking the name with something bad.
  • I'm not sure what you're getting at here — I think that you're saying that we should change the name because there are real people named "Libby" and the trope is not a likable character, and so we've somehow damaged their name, or them, or something.

• "We don't otherwise name tropes, especially negative tropes, after common names. It's the Ted Baxter, not The Ted. It's Leisure Suit Larry, not The Larry. It's The Urkel, but definitely not The Steve."
  • , Ok that is what you were saying. And you're right, we don't name tropes with just a first name anymore, especially if it's a common first name. And no, The Libby wouldn't be named that if we were naming it fresh now. But we aren't naming it fresh now.

• "Let's rename the trope to one of its redirects. "Queen Bee" or "Alpha Bitch." "The Libby" could stay as a redirect, but I will, if we rename, personally update all 2, 000 wicks within 24 hours. "
  • The Libby would need to stay as a redirect. You may be able to change the 2000 wicks, but you can't do anything about the nearly 6000 links to that page from other websites (that's what the "inbound count" is).
  • I admire your enthusiasm, but hyperbole doesn't help, and to single-handedly change 1800+ wicks in 24 hours, you'd need to to fix wicks at the rate of roughly 1 every 48 seconds for 24 hours straight.

• "We also would need to rename the several tropes that incorporate "Libby", such as Lovable Libby, Knifing The Libby In The Back and Libby My Old Friend."
  • You're absolutely correct that they would also need to be renamed. And that further weakens your argument. You aren't proposing renaming one trope; you're proposing renaming five of them at once. Incidentally, those four tropes add another 135 wicks and 161 inbound links.

edited 24th Mar '11 7:16:47 PM by Madrugada

Besides, Libby sounds like a good name for the character, along the lines of Missy and Muffy.

This is a trope of legend. I have no clue who Libby is, yet I still know exactly what this trope means. I'm sure others would say the same.

Routerie:

You say

We have no way to prove much of anything regarding whether a name is "good". But we do have several ways to determine whether the name is "working". These ways are inbounds, wicks, and relative proportions of proper use to improper use in the wicks. By all three of these metrics "The Libby" is working quite well.

We do not rename tropes that have names that work without an overwhelmingly good reason to do so.

The reasons you've offered are not overwhelmingly good. The idea that we should rename the trope to avoid hurting the feelings of people named Libby or "damaging" the name is, in my personal opinion, silly. That we wouldn't name it The Libby now is quite true as a statement of fact, but as a reason to rename, it's weak. "We wouldn't name it that now" isn't even on the list of reasons to consider a rename.

I totally understand your points here. I don't really have an opinion either way, but I am intrigued about how this'll turn out.

Add a post opens a blank page? What browser you using?

Ironically, the first time I saw this trope my first reaction was "I'm thinking of the Sabrina character, but they couldn't possibly mean that".

And is Libby at all common in real life? Yeah, it exists, but there probably aren't that many more people who go by that name than there are Urkels.

edited 25th Mar '11 1:14:03 PM by arromdee

Nope. Never met a Libby, so it isn't a common name.

Any more objections?

I never met someone called Chang, yet it's still the most common surname on earth.

Not that it's an argument to change the name or anything. Just saying.

edited 25th Mar '11 6:18:26 PM by Ghilz

Well, I also never met no one called John. But that is related to where I live.

I was under the impression 'Libby' was an English name, right? If multiple people from English speaking countries say they never met any Libby, then I can only suppose it is not a common name.

I don't think this is at all relevant to the discussion, though.

I can only suppose it is not a common name.

I don't think this is at all relevant to the discussion, though.

Read the original post. One of the arguments is that it's a common name and that we specifically don't use common names for negative tropes.

edited 26th Mar '11 7:23:16 PM by arromdee

FYI, you can check a name's popularity, at least within the US. I tried the US Social Security Site, which keeps track of popular names through the years. (Here).

"Libby" doesn't show up in the top 1000 from a span of about 1961-2002. Of those years, it ranked:

• 2002 - 978 (Ranked below Nyasia, Aja, Jaquelin, Kari, Yolanda, and Alex (as a girl's name))
• 2003 - 923 (Ranked below Sarahi, Marlen, Candice, Natalee, Saige, Elyssa, and Armani)
• 2004 - 826 (Ranked below Essence, Jalyn, Christian (again, as girl's name only), Marlee, Alysa, Amaris, Dalie, and Halie)
• 2005 - 782 (ranked below Mattie, Annabel, Yareli, Ashton, Brandi, Gracelyn, and Laurel)
• 2006 - 787 (ranked below Abigayle, Ashly, Amery, Lilyana, Shakira, Zariah, and Elsa)
• 2007 - 865 (Ranked below Mylie, Lizeth, Keyla, Kinley, Karma, and Magdelena)

So of course by this logic it would be worse to have a trope called The Nyasia or The Yareli than The Libby, but that's not entirely fair — the census keeps track of what's on the birth certificate, not what's used as a nickname. If the kid's birth name is Steven but you call him Steve, he's still going to be ranked as "Steven," so "Steve" shows up lower in the records than he does in real life. "Libby" is diminutive of the uber-popular "Elizabeth," which seldom drops out of the top 10. So it's only fair to assume there are more "Libby's" around than are strictly accounted for.

Why I am bringing this up I am not sure. I'm not particularly keen on renaming it. I just wanted to point out there's ways of checking the popularity of a name beyond personal anecdotes.

edited 26th Mar '11 8:17:15 PM by Tyoria

I meant that I think that the popularity of 'Libby' is irrelevant for whether we should rename or not. I am disagreeing with the Opener, on that matter.

Also, we never stopped using a common name for any reason other then 'it might make people think in other thing'. "May offend people with that name" never was a top priority, as far I know.

edited 27th Mar '11 12:06:20 AM by Heatth

I think it being a common name is definitely not a reason to rename it.

The reason to rename it is because it's a stupid name that you have to read the article to understand.

You say that as if reading the article would be a hardship.

Let's not forget that renaming The Libby means we have to rename other tropes that refer to The Libby.

Count me as one who had no clue what "The Libby" was. I've never seen Sabrina the Teenage Witch. "Libby" is a nickname for women who were in Women's Liberation. So this trope never made sense to me, unless to assume incorrectly that all liberated women are bullies/Mean Girls. Personally I call women like this "Chris Hargensen", but few people remember the name of Carrie White's antagonist enough that it could be used.

In fact, I think if you do decide to rename it, it should become Mean Girl. It's a famous enough movie, people would get it.

Wait, Mean Girls is a movie?

We should lock this then.

edited 27th Mar '11 6:15:28 AM by chihuahua0

I'm not familiar with it, and the trope doesn't refer to girls who are mean in general.

We should lock this...why? Did something get resolved while I wasn't looking?