Heartless Bitches International's "nice guys" article

I noticed this article used to be linked on the Troper Tales sub-section of Dogged Nice Guy. Many seemed to agree with it, many others seemed to disagree. The article, if I've interpreted it correctly, seems to be describing people who are doormats, suck up to others to gain acceptence, and have low-self esteem and are worshipful of their crushes. What I noticed, though, is that the article seems to be strangely hostile to such people. I can certainly understand why it wouldn't be fun to spend time with (much less date) someone who fits the article's definition of "nice guy", but I'm not sure why such a person is necessarily a bad or malevolent person or deserves to be called a "loser". Did anyone else feel this way? Is there something I'm missing?

the world is so complicated

It's partly because society raises us to believe that macho jerks with six packs are ideal men. The other part is, yes, these guys are annoying.

Warm hugs and morally questionable advice given here. Prosey Bitchfest

I think the link is mostly a warning to people reading the page that being nice does not mean you are entitled to dates/sex, although fiction seems to say otherwise. Seriously, every other romance movie seems to be "loserish person wins because they were nice and they deserved it". Well, that's not how relationships work.

While encouraging people to not be such doormats is helpful, being harsh to gentle people who happen to be such doormats hardly seems like a justifiable way of going about it. -.-

The article flays a certain type of individual (and they exist on both sides of the gender line) who plays on the deepest form of human frailty; guilt.

In essence, the article describes the sort of person who will expend all this effort on a person who may or may not want it, and use said expenditure to create a sense of obligation in the target.

Put even simpler: they give you gifts you don't want, and then expect you to give them gifts they do want.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

This only works if you assume them to be doing this on purpose. In practice, that is a... questionable assumption, at best.

@OP: Did you read it? It's pretty obvious that she's talking about the "nice guys" who come off as creepy stalkers, not guys that are actually nice.

It's about the guys who are desperate to the point of being unnerving. The whole "This is our first date, but I think I want to marry you" or the "I'm going to completely repress anything I want because you might not like it, and you're my goddess" sort of thing.

@Neo: Being someone that has dated several "nice guys", I'd say that Drunkscriblerian is right on the money with his assessment.

edited 10th Mar '11 8:48:03 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

I'm guessing this website is heavy into hyperbole? Because you could just swap "nice" with "cloying" and be done with it.

I'm a skeptical squirrel

@johnny: you pretty much could, which is what the OP's article was getting at. People like that do exist, and they're depressingly common.

And yes, this is TV Tropes. We love our hyperbole.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

Then they should have swapped the wording themselves. Communicating badly and then acting smug when one's misunderstood is not cleverness.

@Johnny: They use the term "nice guys" because that's the terminology the guys themselves use. It's become a generic term for the cloying and/or whiney guys who believe that they're being "nice" by subjugating the target of their desires. As the author says, "They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be — not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them."

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

@Op and I guess @Neo, the website isn't about bashing the bashful/less than macho- it's about a type of person who is pretty much a Bitch in Sheep's Clothing- they aren't nice at all- below the surface, they have a massive sense of entitlement and are highly misogynistic.

Hodor

neo, "Nice Guy  ^TM

" is the accepted term for this sort of person. Getting hung up on precise wording instead of paying attention to what's being said also is not clever.

edited 10th Mar '11 8:55:29 PM by Karalora

What about guys who simply believe that girls don't like nice guys because they've heard that before, and that idea sounded more convincing than the arguments to the contrary?

"Cloying" guys have no monopoly over the phrase "nice guy" and the phrase should not be associated with them. Even if they associate it with themselves, that is not reason enough to repeat their mistake.

edited 10th Mar '11 8:56:53 PM by neoYTPism

@Jordan: well said.

@Kara: ...and good point.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

@Neo: If a guy has to convince someone they're a nice guy, then oftentimes they're not.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

I checked out the site and it's a lot of semi-angry, self-affirming grrl power rants which everyone already knows, but apparently these ladies need annual reminders about.

This is grade school stuff. If you're a guy, and you want to get a girl interested, you play the aloof game. Then, once you're serious, she demands your time and attention constantly. That's the natural order of things!

edited 10th Mar '11 8:59:04 PM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel

@johnny: the arguments can be applied to both sides of the gender line. there are plenty of women who pull the same routine. They only use the example of men because right now, its more common with men; I think this has something to do with feminism being a little too successful (and men being morons about it), but whatever.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

Who says they do? My point was that a guy who is primarily nice might think girls don't like nice guys because they thought the people arguing that perspective seemed more logical than the ones arguing otherwise. From some webforums I've been on, I wouldn't blame some people for getting that impression. Many of the proponents of perspectives like that author's are not helping their case.

edited 15th Mar '11 2:45:37 PM by neoYTPism

Well, I think it would be inaccurate to say that all or most girls like nice guys   ^{clarification}

. Plenty of people are nice, but that alone doesn't make them interesting or sexually attractive.

edited 10th Mar '11 9:04:46 PM by melloncollie

I view women and men as objects. Is that okay?

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...

Okay then, but what about the idea that girls are attracted to "morally bad" traits in guys? I don't claim to know one way or another on this, but again, the way people over-react to that assumption (especially on some other webforums I go to) just seems to be, again, a Not Helping Your Case scenario.

edited 10th Mar '11 9:07:03 PM by neoYTPism

@Neo: Which is one of the things the author was attempting to address. The mere existence of "nice guys" is detrimental to men that are actually nice. "Nice guys" tend to paint women as the sort that only want to date monsters, because that's the only reason they can't get dates.

It's not our fault that men get turned down because they're creepers and go "Those bitches just don't like me because I'm a nice guy!"

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

I think the issue is that the "nice guys" are just as morally bad, they just lack the Evil Is Cool aspect.

What are the other foruma you visit where you see that attitude?

edited 10th Mar '11 9:08:25 PM by Jordan

Hodor

Well, what about the idea? I don't know where we're going with this.