Why is it supposed that females can't relate to a male lead?

While that may be true for the women liking the Yuri genre, most of the female fanfic readers/writers I encounter are into slash/yaoi, and I don't see any disenfranchisement from the lack of vagina, in fact, they welcome it. also explicit talk

Your last statement practically explains why most men think women are a completely different species.

edited 13th Apr '12 8:44:41 AM by ladycoffee

*shrug*

Not explicit, but may be TMI for some.

I don't understand it fully, but there you have it.

edited 13th Apr '12 8:45:23 AM by KingZeal

King Zeal@: I don't understand it completely either, but yeah.

And you might just identify with the male lead in the planned lemon I'm talking about(sub in a hetero relationship). Not telling which fandom the character is from due to running the risk of being flamed for it.

edited 13th Apr '12 8:49:13 AM by ladycoffee

We can talk about that in P Ms, if you want.

As for your comment about men being a different species (because we feel the exact inverse) a study I recently read did a lot to shed light on why it seems that way.

Women see being "sexy" as merely a social display. When a guy's sexy, women can look and admire without believing his appearance is a full-on advertisement. Men, however, have the expectation that a "sexy" woman is bascially saying, "Here I am, waiting for you to take me." It's why terms like Cocktease and Slut get thrown about so easily just because a woman wants to look appealing but turns down men who hit on her.

"How dare she turn me down?! Why look like that if she didn't want me!?"

I have to say, as a guy, that seems pretty accurate. My ego takes a blow when I see a girl I would like to sex and she isn't interested.

Hmm, interesting.

I didn't realize guys were so self-centered.

And see, guys don't see that as "self-centered".

Maybe it's simply because not all women want to do it with someone who outright asks them to, much less form a complete stranger? Not to sound like I'm bragging about my looks, but if you tell me that, not only will I turn you down, I might do something worse.

Maybe I'll PM you one of these days. Right now it's midnight, and I have to go to sleep.

Agh, derail alert. Someone has to steer back this thread to something more on-topic.

Not self-centered, a difference in understanding.

The dude assumes that people try to look sexy to attract other people, whereas the women dress up for it's own sake.

I just think cute guys are cute.

Oooh, good point.

Erm...

edited 13th Apr '12 9:01:22 AM by inane242

I think we're fairly on-topic. We're making a lot of progress to explain why people have trouble relating to one gender or another.

Ooh, finally, I contributed something useful to a thread!

Okay, have to sign off. Still have work tomorrow.

Good night. This reply will be waiting for you.

Well, most guys who flat out ask you are considered to be losers. There's an entire social science called Pick-Up Art (or "PUA" popularized by The Game) which is designed to pick up women indirectly. To play "the game", so to speak. PU As don't flat out hit on women (because they know they don't like that)—they use subtext, body language and Reverse Psychology to do so. And supposedly, it works.

edited 13th Apr '12 9:17:35 AM by KingZeal

Those guys have significant overlap with the misogynistic loser crowd.

Heterosexual relationship dynamics seem awfully confusing.

edited 13th Apr '12 9:20:16 AM by inane242

Their "loser" status depends on what a particular subsect of society respects. In general, I've found that both genders' psychological drives revolve around recognition from peers of the same sex. They want to appear respectable to or even superior to members of that gender. The stereotype of A Man Is Not A Virgin and A Man Is Always Eager comes up because this is what men expect and respect of each other. James Bond and James T. Kirk are fondly remembered by many because of their sexual promiscuity and essentially being a (white) male Power Fantasy.

Have trouble sleeping, so I checked back.

Not much to say, so carry on.

Bringing it back on topic, I have to ask:

Where on the sliding stereotype of male stereotypes are we considering "male protagonists"? Testosterone Poisoning would be a 10 as a stereotype, Rated M for Manly would be about a 5, Ridiculously Average Guy is a 1.

I think most women would be able to identify with a 1, and would start having trouble about 5 or higher.

edited 13th Apr '12 9:47:13 AM by KingZeal

I think that's pretty spot on.

I just read the page on Seme, and it's actually the other way around: female fanfic readers into the guy/guy business put themselevs in the dominant guy's shoes and imagine themselves that it's them who's doing in the Uke(the submissive in Boys' Love fandom terms}, which they could never do in a hetero relationship. Well, that's a better explanation, but my response to that is the same: I don't have a dick, so I don't buy.

Huh. Didn't See That Coming.

Now that makes me want to postulate why that is the case.

EDIT: Ooooooh, I get it now. I just read the page. It's simple.

The Seme is the type of guy the Yaoi Fangirl would like to have as a boyfriend while the Uke is the one she can let release her repressed dominant upon. So, basically, it's the best of both world. The guy she could have and the guy she "couldn't" have all at once.

edited 13th Apr '12 8:52:10 PM by KingZeal

That makes a lot of sense. Still, I'm not a Yaoi Fangirl, and I prefer one in the party whom I could identify with, e.g. one with a vagina.

And it's ironic that they believe that they're rebelling against the "oppressive" tradition of heterosexuality when they're actually enforcing it by strengthening the "females can't be dominant" part of said oppressive tradition.

It's related to a concept known as "everyone wants everything (from their partner), even if they don't know it."

edited 13th Apr '12 9:03:08 PM by Ekuran

And that's part of why we have break-ups and divorces. (unrealistic expectations)

And really, the whole thing with Yaoi Fangirls wanting to get the "best of both worlds" with seme/uke just strikes me as too greedy and self-centered(on the writer and target audience's part), especially in non-canon pairings in fanfiction. I mean, I think it's better that I just settle for one of the male characters and not make him and the rest of the male cast lose their dignity by going against their canonical sexuality just for my fantasies.

edited 13th Apr '12 9:42:29 PM by ladycoffee

Well, love and lust are altogether selfish emotions.

Humans, by my estimations, have a few core psychological drives:

• The Desire To Be Special/Individual
• The Desire For Companionship/Recognition
• The Desire For Safety/Security

A lover that can do all of those three is going to be the ultimate fantasy. Even people who don't consider themselves "self-centered" are mostly feeling that way because they've been taught they can't have everything. That's where fantasy comes in. For submissives, a lover who makes them feel like the greatest/most desirable man/woman in the world, recognizes his/her worth, and can keep him/her safe and secure is tops. For a dominant, having the pick of the best lover makes them feel special, having someone who depends on them makes them feel recognized, and maintaining their Undying Loyalty is tops.

There's probably not a person on the planet that doesn't want these three things in some form, but again, we've just been told it's selfish to expect all of them.

A well thought-out analysis, but to say that love itself is selfish is stretching it a bit too far. I don't know, this is just my personal belief, but anything else that stems for selfishness shouldn't be called love. Maybe infatuation/obsession/unhealthy attachment?

And it kinda strikes me as implying that love is a bad thing because it's selfish, and it's in our nature to love, so loving is bad because it disregards other important things.

edited 13th Apr '12 9:51:33 PM by ladycoffee

Selfishness is not inherently a bad thing, though. It just needs to be balanced with selfless'ness. There are times when one is appropriate and times when the other is.

Romantic love, however, is selfish. Limerence is what people begin to feel when they're deeply infatuated with someone, and there's a chance that the minimum what they feel isn't reciprocated. It doesn't always mean someone expects to be loved solely or unconditionally, but simply that they have something they want from the person, and the thought of not having it is utterly painful. Most humans on the planet feel this at some point, and it's biological. Our brains force us to feel this, and secrete dopamine to keep us from thinking about it too deeply.

That's why I don't trust romance-bashing psychologists/psychoanalysts who feel the need to put a wet blanket on popular thinking by twisting it into something unpleasant. "Falling in love is unhealthy and goes against the common good!" er...

edited 13th Apr '12 10:03:18 PM by ladycoffee