Why is it supposed that females can't relate to a male lead?

I'm big into old Film Noir and stuffs.

Anyhoo, I see no reason why females couldn't relate to a male lead, I mean if dudes can relate to a female one...

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.

I really don't understand this thread. Usually it's considered to be the other way around. Where is the OP hearing that female readers can't relate to a male lead?

@Ultra: Ohdearlord,junoannoysmewithitswholeindierthanthoufeel.

Yeah, the trend is most certainly really just the opposite. I've never heard this assertation, though the closest to it that I've heard is the Girls Need Role Models mindset, which has mixed results.

edited 10th Apr '12 12:32:21 AM by 0dd1

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.

Just leaving this here.

http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly-feminist-game-of-the-year

edited 10th Apr '12 3:25:53 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

It isn't assumed. Most movies have male leads, especially action movies. Even romantic comedies (the prototypical 'women's movie') generally give equal time to the male and female leads.

The other thread exists because it genuinely is rare to have a female lead in movies (or other forms of media) marketed to guys, and if there is one she's generally got an all-male supporting cast. Movies and books with a female main character tend to be considered "women's books", unless the woman exists primarily as eye candy (Lara Croft, Underworld, etc.). The Hunger Games may be managing to break through this, but it's still presented primarily as a series for teen girls, simply because the main character is a girl. In contrast, the Harry Potter books were automatically seen as being for both boys and girls, because they had a male lead.

edited 10th Apr '12 7:05:58 AM by WarriorEowyn

I think what the OP is asking is why people who push for more female leads in TV and movies seem to be arguing simultaneously that women need to see themselves represented and that men won't be turned off by not seeing themselves represented. In other words, if the proposed female leads will be good enough for men, then why aren't the existing male leads good enough for women?

The answer of course, is that the question misses the point. It's not that women can't relate to male leads; it's that it's easier for them to relate to female leads, just as it's easier for men to relate to male leads, and in the interest of serving both halves of the audience equally, the field should be evened out. TV and movie protagonists are overwhelmingly male, and the few female protagonists are mostly sequestered in a handful of "chick" genres. And that ain't cool.

If you want women to be more relatable to men, you have to stop making them such stereotypes. I like what Mass Effect tried to do and it made sense. Why should it matter?

What I would like to see are more works that are done in such a way the gender of the character is completely irrelevant. It is a hard task, and one not to be taken on lightly, but you would get the quality the arts lovers want with the apathy of those of us who just want an entertaining piece of work.

And who says we have to relate to every character? Sometimes it's just mindless enjoyment of a story. Not everything needs to touch to the core.

I was telling my boyfriend how while I appreciate the use of romance and crushes as a battle tactic in the Hunger Games, I would like to see more literature or other forms of expression where especially a young adult character geared to young adult characters didn't have a love intrest or a crush of any kind just to let all the real kids out there know it's okay to not have be in a relationship or you don't have to have a crush. (Especially after the effects of Twilight on both genders.)

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

I'd say there's a middle ground between 'ridiculous sexist stereotype' and 'gender completely irrelevant'. In the real world, being a woman will affect you in different ways to being a man, and it's OK for fiction to explore that so long as it treats the characters as people.

What's precedent ever done for us?

I figured that was a given.

I would like to see more diversity in our artistic expressions in general. Some women and men loved the character of Lisabeth in "Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" for her ability to be related to. A different demographic would have thought otherwise.

If we have more well-written pieces that have better variety of personality types and lifestyle arrangements, there would be more oppertunities for both genders to relate to characters. I just also acknowledge sometimes the artist doesn't want that relation to occur. You can't please everyone. So might as well try new things and aim for overall quality. Relation will come with more honesty and attachment to character that way.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

EDIT: Fuck it, I'm not starting that up.

Anyway, many, many years ago, I was told that my Action Girl protagonists were too much like men. "Dudes in a dress" was how one of my readers called it, even though she ultimately enjoyed the story. She said that there was nothing wrong with my characters, per se, she wanted to read about a more feminine character as a change.

So, my solution was to write a character whose power wasn't physical or violent. She was a Seer, and her abilities were more along the lines of She-Fu (dodging, avoiding, protecting, etc.) but with a precision weapon like a gun or a throwing knives, she was 100% accurate.

After coming to TV Tropes, though, I found out that this was just yet another stereotype.

---

For a while, I had to write Lemons while between jobs. Even in those, some of my female readers complained that my female characters were too dominant and that they couldn't find themselves attracted to a submissive male. Most of them wanted my male leads to be more like assertive father figures. And, when I started trying what my readers demanded, my audience rating improved 20%.

---

In other words, a balance has to be struck somewhere, but no one can say for sure where that balance is until the story is written.

edited 13th Apr '12 6:33:03 AM by KingZeal

I find that funny, since most female fanfic readers/writers enjoy a submissive male when the dominant one's another male. Double Standard, much? (and one that really annoys me. And I'm a girl.)

That's the exact issue I'm planning to tackle in a Lemon fic that I'm planning to write in the (far)future.

edited 13th Apr '12 7:42:41 AM by ladycoffee

WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised.

Urgh, Yaoi... (*Off Topic RAEGGGGGGG*)

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.

inane@: Shh. They can hear you.

Meh, I don't really care much about meeting the expectations of readers. I just want to write down and post my take on the unpopular "dominant female/submissive male(at least in bed)" concept.

WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised.

I could get into that type of setting just fine.

I guess what I mean is I really hate the stereotypical heroine tropes of how they always get captured and rely on their man to bail them out. I really enjoy confident female characters who are resourceful and take charge.

Totally agree with that article about Lt Mira from Space Marine. Those are the type of female characters that I like. Though as an IG fan, I would have preferred it if the entire game were about the Imperial Guard. I find them more interesting than the 9 foot tall, testosterone pumped, super badasses that are the Space Marines.

Ordinary people with flashlights and t-shirts, fighting against the horrors of the universe. And they are almost always gender integrated without any serious problems.

edited 13th Apr '12 7:53:07 AM by Barkey

Dominant female/submissive male in bed is unpopular?

The non-BDSM version is supposed to subvert the fantasy/expectations of both sexes.

But I'm also planning to extend the dynamic to the relationship of the characters in general, as well.

edited 13th Apr '12 7:59:42 AM by ladycoffee

WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised.

Amongst my readers? Yes, it was.

Who are your readers? :/

Online commenters/raters that were paid customers to an X-rated site. And sorry, I'm going to decline further information.

This whole thing is ripe for a thorough analysis on the expectations of both genders in a relationship...this is gonna make my planned story a bit more interesting.

WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised.

Yes. I am currently writing a female lead but half of the characters are switching or declining to have sexes as much as most people change their underpants, so I'm not sure what readers will think of that.

Audiences tend to be very fickle. Even if we had notions about how they would react, chances are, the actual feedback may not be what we're expecting. So just go for it, and see what happens.

WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised.

I think one thing to consider is the audience being appealed to. Flat out porn or juvenile fiction (shonen, American comics, teen romance, etc.) tend to appeal to a low common denominator. I'm not using that as an insult, just saying that when people boot up their computers for porn, action, or sappy romance, they're not interested in deconstructions or analyses. That stuff has to be subtle and secondary.

It's when fiction is supposed to be highbrow (Oscar Bait movies, thought-provoking literature, genre-breaking graphic novels, etc.) that people will get out their critic glasses. Unless the story is just bad, in which case, no amount of action or sex will save you.

In my case, I was writing wank material with plot. The women who read it wanted to engage their deepest fantasies and usually that meant being able to "let go" and let "Daddy" take care of them. It took me a while to figure out how to balance that with respectable female characters.

edited 13th Apr '12 8:42:16 AM by KingZeal

Like you said, your female audiences seem to be afflicted with the Electra Complex (which does not describe me), so that's a given. And in hindsight, certain female fanfic readers want a submissive male with a dominant male, because they can insert themselves in the submissive male and their sexuality will not be threatened at the same time. This may be true, but personally, I still don't buy the logic behind this. I mean, I don't have a penis so how can I insert myself in the sub male's shoes? (confused)

Although the said lemon I'm planning to write is not a part of the original story (it's a shonen-style gen crossover fic), just a supplementary material for those who want analysis and (if it's your thing) wank material.

edited 13th Apr '12 8:24:50 AM by ladycoffee

WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised.

I'm honestly not sure how it works for girls, but it may be related to why guys can get into futanari.

Men and women (in general) enjoy different things from sex. Click if you want explicit details.

Women, in kind, probably like Yuri stuff for similar reasons. Again, explicit content censored

EDIT: Also, while your position is hardly uncommon, research I've read seems to indicate that somewhere between 60 - 70% of women prefer being the submissive party in a relationship and 70 - 80% of men prefer to be dominant.

---

Turning the conversation from romance and sex for a moment, someone in another thread once said this:

"There's a lot of healthy overlap between what women find sexy in men and how guys realistically want to see themselves. There's little to none, however, in what guys find sexy in women and how ladies realistically want to see themselves."

edited 13th Apr '12 8:39:47 AM by KingZeal