Christian tropers, join together!

The whole "Mary was always a virgin" bugs me, to be honest. My understanding was that sex in the context of a marriage was just fine, and in fact was a beautiful thing. Therefore, why would it lessen Mary in any way if she did in fact have children with Joseph in the usual way?

Regarding the whole Jesus thing - I'm pretty sure that a Christian who pays lip service to Jesus while being a horrible person would not be considered better than a good person who happened to be Hindu or Buddhist or whatever. And as I've said before, I thought the idea was that everyone got to heaven.

@Diamonnes:

Why is it the belief in Jesus that's important, rather than doing good things? Don't you find this very arbitrary?

For instance, I'm basially the definition of Chaotic Good.

Laconic version: Because you're not as good as you think you are.

Read the 613 laws and ask yourself honestly how many you break. Or read Maistre's seventh St. Petersburg Dialogue and tell me if you're innocent of even being an accessory to all the violent crimes against men and animals he enumerates.

Christ came and died at our hands to show that God forgives us for being blood-soaked fiends. He rose again in his human body not just to demonstrate his divinity, but as a promise that the rest of us frail humans, so easily killed, can also conquer Death if we recognize this act and its implications.

I should hope that anyone with a belief in Jesus Christ as the incarnate revelation of the nature of God to humankind would do good works anyway, rather than just sitting around, safe in the knowledge that they're already 'saved' (eugh, I hate that word). As far as I'm concerned, Christians are called by God to 'live through Christ' and take up their cross, to do good works and help one's neighbour to the extent that they live a life of constant self-sacrifice, as demonstrated by Christ. Christ is after all the way, not just the destination.

On another subject, anyone else a fan of the theologian Jürgen Moltmann? Recently found out about his work and basically agreed with most of it.

Okay, here's the thing: Simple belief in Jesus is not enough to save. It's the baptism, the pledge of living for Jesus and doing what he tells you to, that is important, and one of it's components is belief. Jesus tells us to do good deeds- you are doing only half of it, and even then, can only fall short. Good deeds are not enough to get you into heaven, and a Christian doing bad things probably isn't going in either. Because as much as people don't like to admit it, it is possible to become lost again after being baptized. You just need to do it again. That simple.

So, what ^he said.

Also, never heard of him. At a glance at the wiki page, he seems like a cool guy. Nothing I disagree with yet.

Are you Catholic, Loni?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Catholics freaking rock.

Yup, I'm catholic.

That's odd, I got the feeling lots of people disliked catholicism.

edited 8th Feb '11 7:09:50 PM by LoniJay

They're morons. Catholicism is the most perfectly executed case of Take a Third Option ever executed in a monotheistic religion. It takes the one thing I don't like about most branches of Christianity (arbitrary eternal punishment) and throws it out without saying that that mass murderer over there is going to get Electric Chair'ed straight into the pearly gates. It's bloody brilliant.

edited 8th Feb '11 8:18:37 PM by Diamonnes

So, other denominations of Christianity hold to the 'hell is eternal' idea?

It varies, but a lot do.

Catholic mass is also fun. Most people I know say it's dull...I've found the various other ones I've been to anywhere from annoying to confusing and horrifying. Excited happy singing time freaks me out. Catholic mass is nice and comfortable though... That and Latin is fucking badass.

edited 8th Feb '11 9:32:54 PM by Aondeug

Catholics freaking rock.

That's...usually the opposite of what we tend to get

Not a fan of Christian Rock, then?

I don't really like the idea of a latin mass. I go to mass to listen, why in the world would I want it to all be in a language I don't understand?

edited 8th Feb '11 9:43:10 PM by LoniJay

No not really a fan of that either though I haven't listened to much of it. By myself I might be fine with it, but groups of singing people where you're expected to sing and dance and be happy is just...oh god. It's just...strange and unnerving.

@Diammones The Adventist church doesn't believe in the idea of Hell as a fiery place of eternal torture either.

edited 9th Feb '11 12:12:48 AM by KCK

Essentially my pastor states that we haven't the foggiest what hell is like, so better safe than sorry.

I don't figure that hell is a realm of torment or anything crazy like that. The symbolism in the story of the rich man and Lazarus has a lot of fascinating implications that would state that hell isn't quite what we'd expect it to be.

Still not a place I'd recommend going to though, but much better than the High Octane Nightmare Fuel version that so many tout.

edited 9th Feb '11 1:24:35 AM by TheMightyAnonym

I always thought that hell wasn't so much a place as it was a state of mind, that you were only able to get out of by admitting your sins and seeking forgiveness. The bad thing isn't so much that hell is horrible, it's just that it's not Heaven.

Hmm, I haven't heard a lot about the different ideas regarding hell, the only version I'm familiar with is the super-horrible "flames everywhere and disfigured corpses clawing at you from all sides" version. This is really pretty interesting.

Fire and Brimstone Hell, that's, I'd say, a picture of Hell for dummies. IIRC the Catholic teachings, the Hell is supposed to be the place and the state of mind. The punishment is not about pain or something, but about not being with God. Or this: not being with God on your own account. Kind of "I coulda done better on that exam if I learned more!" for all eternity.

Then the Catholic Church gets that idea of a Purgatory, on the issue of which I'm kind of fuzzy. In general I see it as "Okay, you are a sinner, but at least you felt some remorse, so we'll let you in... in a while."

edited 9th Feb '11 8:07:43 AM by lordGacek

Purgatory is basically like when the YMCA makes you shower before you get in the pool.

Sin is a disease. You have to wash it off so you don't do any harm in the pool.

Or like detention. Lapsed Catholic here too, by the way.

I honestly know nothing about purgatory. It's not a topic the Children's Liturgy focused on much...

Wasn't the idea that non-baptised people who were still good people had to go there? Not too keen on that idea. Or was that Limbo?

That's Limbo. And Limbo was never an official part of Catholic doctrine.

Well, that's good.

Limbo is Word of Dante.

And in Dante, it's a bit of Fridge Logic once he gets to Jupiter and an eagle comprised of the souls of all righteous rulers tells him it includes Pagans.