Essential Anime: Proposed Additions

I have a suggestion with regard to the Mons genre: I think it needs Digimon. The first series, Adventure, should arguably be included because it gave considerably more depth to the characters than the likes of Pokemon, and because it - at least briefly - examined the consequences of Mons actually appearing in the real world (The Eight Child/Myostismon arc). I'm not sure if it was quite influential or different enough to warrant a mention, just throwing it out there.

But Digimon Tamers should definitely be on that list. It's a very effective Deconstruction/Reconstruction of the Mons idea, and it predates the anime adaptation of Narutaru by 2 years. Heck, the lead writer even went on to write Narutaru! There's influence for you right there! It also managed to deconstruct its genre without alienating said genre's main demographic (children). I can't imagine many children watching Narutaru, can you? As far as I can see, Tamers has a very strong case to either replace Narutaru in that list or be added in ahead of it. What do you think?

I'm not sure how much of a say I would have here, but I second Digimon Tamers.

edited 2nd Oct '11 12:29:42 PM by Pokénatic

<AOL!>

I beg your pardon? :)

Long story short, it's slang for "I also concur with this opinion."

I know virtually nothing about the Mons genre. Except that Pokemon exists.

We can have more than one Deconstruction for a genre if the deconstruction occurred in different directions.

I'm thinking about what the possible method would be to decide what to do. I remember I had a rough draft of a method earlier... let me go look it up again.

@Pokénatic

Thanks for the support :).

@SKJAM,

Ah. Makes sense, thank you.

@Cosman246,

So then, thank you too, and sorry for the confusion!

@Sackett,

A final thank you for returning to this old thread. Looking forward to the decision method.

Looking at the rough draft I had for the decision making method it was this:

1: Person presents idea for an addition to the Essential Anime page.

2: Proposal is discussed here. See if there is consensus. (Multiple comments supporting or opposing). Can decision be reached by consensus?

3: If not have the position for addition written up, and the position against addition written up. Go to a crowner to vote, with links to the opposed and supporting write ups. Addition requires 66% of the vote in favor of addition, after crowner has achieved stability (not changing). (Also, most people felt we needed a vote minimum- at least 20 voters was were most people thought the minimum was).

This rough draft for the method was never agreed on as I recall. However, I think it makes a good guideline (it's been ignored a few times I notice).

Going by it, looks like you have two options. One is to wait and see if more comments are given on your proposal here. If you get another 4 or 5 positives with no opposition I think you could add it under the consensus route.

Or you could just go to a crowner I suppose (might attract more attention that way). Write up your arguments for, and create a crowner.

I know I would like to see more detail on why Digimon Tamers is a significantly different Deconstruction then Narutaru, or alternatively why Digimon Tamers should be given higher priority and replace Narutaru.

edited 6th Oct '11 6:47:06 PM by Sackett

Thanks Sackett,

Might stick with the thread for the moment, see if a few more people will back us up. I quite like the idea of getting it up by consensus if that's doable.

Onto arguments for Tamers (if anybody else thinks of anything here, please do chime in!)

1. Why it's different from Narutaru.

The biggest difference between Tamers and Narutaru is what I've already alluded to - tone. Tamers, despite being at times rather grim, downbeat, and frankly creepy, is a considerably more hopeful and less flat-out depressing show than Narutaru. Narutaru answers the question "How would Mons work in the real world?" by saying "terrible, awful things will happen. Some people will abuse their power, and the Mons' human partners - and the world in general - will be screwed up almightily. Everything will go to hell in a handcart."

Tamers answers it with "terrible, awful things will happen, some people will abuse their power, and some of the Mons partners will get screwed up almightily. But there's nobility and goodness in creatures both human and digital, and some people will fight very hard to steer that handcart in a different direction." It's almost a deconstruction and reconstruction wrapped up in one. I'd be making more of a case for it to get in as a reconstruction full stop, except for...

2. Why It Should (Maybe) Replace Narutaru

Put simply, Digimon Tamers did it first. The Narutaru anime first aired in 2003, Tamers came out in 2001. Tamers was the first Deconstruction, and as I've pointed out, it almost certainly influenced Narutaru's anime adaptation - Chiaki Konaka that after Tamers.

Granted, Narutaru's manga originally came out in 1998, and it's just about possible that Konaka was responding to that Deconstruction with his more optimistic version (unlikely, but possible). Nonetheless, this page is essential anime, not essential manga. A person who had never read a manga in their lives but made it a point to watch every anime under the sun (shudder) would see Digimon Tamers deconstructing the Mons genre before Narutaru did. And they'd clearly see Tamers' genes in the later show.

3. Conclusions

My own preference is for both Tamers and Narutaru to stay in. Tamers as the original deconstruction and the considerably more idealistic and optimistic one, Narutaru as its considerably more cynical, horrifying, R-Rated cousin (it was a major achievement to be the first Mons series not suitable for kids, which is why I think Narutaru should stay on the page as a "significantly different Deconstruction).

If, however, we're going to change our definitions a bit and accept Narutaru's manga as the first deconstruction, I still think Tamers earns its place for having elements of a Reconstruction (such as the aforementioned optimism), and for being the first to prove that this kind of deconstruction could work in the context of an anime, rather than a manga, thus paving the way for Narutaru's anime adaptation two years later.

So who's with me?

Sorry about the double post - I gave the forum rules a once-over and there didn't seem to be a rule against it, but if I've missed one, I apologise.

Anyway, it'd be excellent if I could get some responses one way or another on whether Digimon Tamers should be added to Essential Anime. If you've seen Tamers and happen to agree or disagree with me, just a quick post saying so would be just dandy. We're only 4 or 5 supporters away from being able to add it, so any help would be really appreciated. Thanks!

Since this topic is kind of dead, I've decided to go ahead and add examples for Cyberpunk anime. I'm sure nobody will object to AKIRA or Ghost In The Shell, but Serial Experiments Lain and Bubblegum Crisis (while still fairly well-known) are a little more obscure than those two. I think they're still worthy of addition, but if anyone disagrees, feel free to let me know what you think.

I agree with Serial Experiments Lain, a little iffy about Bubblegum Crisis though.

I think the reason Serial Experiment Lain is in Mind Screw because it was really the one that started the genre. That means it was influential to the mindscrew genre. Some may say Neon Genesis Evangelion was also mindscrew, but that it can be argued as accidental mindscrew (creator Breakdown + budget ran out).

Cyberpunk however, I am not sure how influential Lain is to cyberpunk genre. I think that need proper discussion before it can go in. Not familiar with bubblegum crisis so no comment on that.

edited 25th Dec '11 12:54:51 AM by kalandra

I shall just go ahead and add Tamers then - anyone who's particularly scandalised by its addition can complain here!

I think Lain should be in both.

And I agree Love Hina deserves to be a trope codifier of harm, especially of Slice of Life-ish harem. After Tenchi, it's pretty much the harem anime/manga. Tenchi had the harem as a main thing, but at the point of tenchi there wasn't really a harem "genre". I'd say Tenchi is closer to the tropemaker (with Urusei Yatsura the Ur or unbuilt Example) starting the genre up and Love Hina is the codifier that got a ton of people into the genre.

I think Fantasy should be split up into a Westernized fantasy subgenre with Record Of Lodoss War, slayers and maybe Escaflowne in there. I don't know if you can really classify 'fantasy' as a whole, there is too much variety there.

Also in Romance there's the huge new trend with the Shana Clone, thing. That might deserve some recognition on the page.

edited 11th Jan '12 11:36:16 AM by NoirGrimoir

Part of the problem with the placement of Lain is that I'm not even sure how Mind Screw is a genre as opposed to a trait common to certain shows. As for whether it belongs in Cyberpunk, well, it's fairly well-known, but I really can't speak as to how influential it is. If somebody else believes it is, great.

I also think Akira belongs under there as well, since it's at least partially a Trope Codifier (especially in visuals).

edited 23rd Jan '12 10:29:04 AM by Deckard

Oh yeah, definitely Akira.

I would give Ouran High School Host Club some thought.

It is a shojou/ reverse harem anime but its also an affectionate parody of shoujou and reverse harems (and brilliantly so). All the male members of the clubs cater to various anime romance hero stereotype and come complete with flower shops worth of roses, bishie sparkles, single tear drops and dialogue out of a fanfic - to the squealing delight of their numerous fangirls and the exsaperation/mockery of the heroine.

It's one of the few comedic animes and even shows I've seen which can do drama just as well. It's not too surprising when watching it either that the same company did Revolutionary Girl Utena (not just for the large amount of roses, good looking men and main female character in boy's clothing) but also due to very elaborate and well done metaphors and reoccuring themes throughout the series.

How about Princess Tutu as far as Postmodernism goes?

As for Mons, I have a soft spot for the Monster Rancher anime. With Pokemon, we came for the monsters and stayed for the monsters (and Team Rocket), with Digimon we came for the monsters and stayed for the humans, and with Monster Rancher we came for the monsters and stayed for the monsters and humans.

Humans and monsters could talk freely for the most part, there were Myth Arcs with defeating each of the Big Bad Four, it was full of awesome moments and tearjerkers alike, and the second season finale was the most awesomely depressing thing I've ever seen.

edited 29th Mar '12 2:43:32 PM by lalalei2001

What about The Girl Who Leapt Through Time? it's often considered a classic when it comes to anime films

Not saying that it wasn't well done, but monster rancher did not define the genre in any specific way (being much closer to a pure fantasy story), so it isn't in my view an essential anime. Keep in mind that thoretically, it would be possible to consider a badly done anime as a reference (ergo, essential) just because it's very representative and is a usual basis for comparison (an example would be pokemon).

The problem with the girl who leapt through time is the same as haruhi's; it's difficult to place it as a reference to a specific genre.

Not sure if its been nominated yet, but I'll like Yu-Gi-Oh to be added to the Mons catagory. While it hasn't been fully stated to be one of their series, it does share elements of their card game. Which is the main point of it being added.

Outside of the anime, we play Pokemon and Digimon in either the video games or with the collectable cards, which Yu-Gi-Oh is running on. From the second anime (the first being Season 0), the anime focus on a card game of mons. Since then we've had other mon card game-based anime from Duel Masters to the recent, Cardfight Vanguard

A few things:

Unclear genre distinction, does “Shonen Fighter” mean that it’s the fighting that’s important or that it’s the shonen that’s important.

Also as for more information on the “Fantasy” anime section, that should probably link to Fantasy Anime & Manga where it could be mentioned that if you were to draw a venn diagram with it and the above two genres, that the “Big Three” anime (Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece) would all sit in the central area where all three mix. Not much else can be said about it, since it builds on the main Fantasy genre within the medium of Anime, and thus is much more commonly influenced by works outside of the medium.

Similarly, the “Gaming” section should link to Gaming and Sports Anime & Manga

On Love Hina and the Harem Genre addressed in posts above:

I think we need to first distinguish between its two major subgenres Balanced Harem and Supporting Harem. Tenchi Muyo is in the balanced category while Love Hina is in the supporting category.

Tenchi Muyo sits in a spot where it could be called the codifier for the Harem Genre, or at least for its Balanced Harem subgenre, if not the subgenre’s maker. The classification is tricky here but in any case it has earned its spot on the list, all that remains to be seen is the question of what other spots it leaves to be filled in the development of the genre and its subgenre for which it provided the barebones that served as the framework for later series.

Love Hina on the other hand, followed Ranma’s deconstruction of the Supporting Harem subgenre, so it can’t be a codifier only a Reconstruction of the subgenre, which it did by taking Ranma’s comedy/romance fusion idea, turning it Up To Eleven and combining the main romance plot with that of Maison Ikkoku. It’s pretty hard to argue with a reconstruction when it uses another work by the same person who made the deconstruction in the first place, plus a Running Gag about mysterious immortality, to do the job.

School Days is the deconstruction of the Balanced Harem subgenre.

edited 12th Mar '13 1:26:30 PM by Glixinator

I'm fine with the links.

I'd say that the Fighter part of Shounen Fighter is more important. It's the part that actually gives it a genre, the shounen part is more a difference of style (and important difference).

I suppose Love Hina can be interpreted as a Reconstruction of the Harem Genre that Ranma deconstructed. It certainly is one of the major anime in the Harem Genre.

Balanced Harem and Supporting Harem are really a more recent idea. Sure there are older harem shows that fit into those categories (Tenchi and Ranma respectively) but until recently people just thought of them as "harem" shows. I'd day that recent harems have been much more clearly designed and thought of as one or the other.

I think we need to wait and see how these subgenres pan out before adding them. Truthfully the current Slice of Life section suffers from this problem, and shows how confusing it can get when you add subgenres that are only a few years old.

edited 13th Mar '13 6:49:24 PM by Sackett

Proposal: New Genre — Seinen

Argument: The Seinen page.

Example Anime: Lupin III (Green Jacket)

Argument: Not only was the manga part of the earliest attempts to reach the older male demographics, the anime was also built initially on the same premise, of an adult male viewing audience and preferences. Executive M Eddling made changes as the series went on, giving it a Retool so that a younger audience could be reached (making the characters less vulgar and more goofy, softer outlines, and sillier plots). Despite this, it was Vindicated by Cable, and the success paved the way for the Seinen genre to continue.

edited 19th Jan '14 5:38:50 PM by crazysamaritan