Statler And Waldorf stingers: Part 2

Most likely it means they will be deleted from the pages they are already on when they are moved

"Remove only the unfunny ones" and "Remove only the ones that aren't relevant to the page they're on" options do not work, because how are you going to determine which ones qualify?

The same way we removed such stingers from Humans Are Bastards—as well as All Red Entry, Self-Demonstrating Article, and other articles since this very topic began—if they're so terrible that they don't even make any sense (or don't even resemble comedy), then we can determine that these stingers aren't very much worth having around.

Umm, hello? This isn't a democracy. Fast Eddie is the admin. That really is kind of important.

Fast Eddie is the admin of a wiki; TV Tropes isn't a dictatorship that's shaped by the will of a single individual; the large majority of this place is shaped by individual users and the will of the participating community.

If Fast Eddie had actually said or done anything here that was supposed to be taken as an order to be followed by the rest of the community by administrative fiat, then the fate of the S&W stingers would've been definitively settled and this thread locked a loooong time ago. Fast Eddie gives his opinions in Trope Repair topics, Image Pickin' subjects, etc. all the time, and the outcome of any of these cases does not necessarily follow his word to the letter.

And again, making an Appeal to Authority is completely pointless.

edited 8th Jan '11 10:53:54 PM by SeanMurrayI

I can see where you're coming from in that (per your previous post) you're convinced that all the accusations against these stingers are all hot air and pretty words ("intrusive", "forced", etc). Your above position logically follows from that.

I did my best to put my finger on what these words mean: Memes that pop up with no context leading up to them, involve characters/entities which have nothing to do with the trope/work described and can't be "glazed over" since they have no meaning for someone not in the know (and later others added: Because they are three lines long).

This has nothing to do with Appeal to Authority. We've all gone through the reasons we support what we do, several times, and none of them had any admins in them. No one is saying "well, now we know who was RIGHT". But for discussions like these that seem to go on and on in circles with neither position giving way, yes, I believe going by what the admin has to say is practical. Of course, no one's preventing you from trying to sway his opinion the other way (I'm only saying that because when I found myself in a situation like this a while ago that's what I tried to do).

edited 9th Jan '11 3:34:28 AM by TripleElation

FE needs a pope hat.

...that wasn't as clear as it should have been, but you know how the pope does that thing where only certain statements are infallible? And the mods have mod hats so...

I PM'd Fast Eddie, we should probably know soon as to weather he was just giving his opinion, or making site policy.

Whoever added the "Remove the ones on trope pages that don't utilize the trope of their respective page, and remove all on work pages" option, that was what I meant by "Remove only the ones that aren't relevant to the page they're on".

But yours is clearer, so everyone just downvote my version.

What exactly is the reason behind wanting to cut them from ALL work pages? A good chunk of work pages S&W appear on are directly related to their own MO or The Muppets (MST 3 K, The Nostalgia Critic, three separate pages pertaining to Muppets content, et. al.)

I know we're ultimately gonna be making a few exceptions on this point in light of that, so something about removing from ALL work pages is going to need a revision.

edited 9th Jan '11 11:18:10 AM by SeanMurrayI

Because it's "don't use the trope", not "isn't relevant to the trope". You can make a stinger about The Nostalgia Critic, but you can't ever use him in a stinger.

You can use The Nostalgia Critic in a stinger. Whether or not we'd want to or whether or not it would be good are the true issues to consider for that matter.

And, heck, if we're going to acknowledge that we can include a stinger about The Nostalgia Critic, then I'm not seeing what's wrong with using an S&W stinger about The Nostalgia Critic.

So just so we're on the same page here, what the people in favor of "keep the ones utilizing the trope" are suggesting is that we keep, say, the one on Double Don't Know? How about the one on Futile Hand Reach?

What I personally think- and do not take this as an argument- is that a good stinger is something witty and to the point that arises out of the trope or work. Mass-producing stingers all in the same mold stifles variety and ends up being unfunny and irrelevant no matter how cleverly you're going to go about it.

edited 9th Jan '11 11:39:21 AM by TripleElation

Mass-producing stingers all in the same mold stifles variety and ends up being unfunny and irrelevant no matter how cleverly you're going to go about it.

I don't disagree with this, but I don't see how any of this is entirely relevant to this subject, either. 80 stingers out of 80,000 pages doesn't suggest "mass production."

edited 9th Jan '11 11:38:51 AM by SeanMurrayI

I didn't mean that "as related to the rest of the site", I meant just in general. Taking a stinger template and trying to apply it to pages instead of thinking up stingers per individual page doesn't end up being witty.

BTW yes, obviously we're going to make an exception for The Muppets etc. no matter what we do.

Double Don't Know seems to fit; Futile Hand Reach isn't really an example of the trope though.

And I suppose I should point out here that none of these are actually on the pages anymore; they've all been moved to the index.

I didn't mean that "as related to the rest of the site", I meant just in general. Taking a stinger template and trying to apply it to pages instead of thinking up stingers per individual page doesn't end up being witty.

I know you meant "just in general." That's why I'm asking if we can at least show how your "general" statement is applicable to the specific subject here.

And if I could make a general observation myself, just about every attempted stinger is done on an individual page basis. If a single model template was indeed running rampant on the wiki, we'd be seeing it on a lot more than just 80 pages.

^I should also point out that that page is no longer an "index."

edited 9th Jan '11 11:46:46 AM by SeanMurrayI

I know, but saying "that had been on" is needlessly cumbersome.

These stingers aren't the result of someone seeing a page and going "Oh I know what the perfect stinger will be here, Statler And Waldorf doing their thing!". It's the result of someone going "Oh I could put one of those Statler And Waldorf stingers here!". That's what I meant, and it's obviously applicable.

edited 9th Jan '11 11:48:49 AM by TripleElation

Whelp.

Good-bye, Slater and Waldorf stingers on the pages! No use complaining about it now and just accept it!

^^But you haven't actually explained why this is a bad thing. (Or directed us to specific pages where this is obviously the case.)

This also neglects that tropers have the ability to change any stingers they're unhappy with at any given time if they don't like a current one or think a different one could be better.

edited 9th Jan '11 11:53:30 AM by SeanMurrayI

As to why this is a bad thing- this is why I said, don't take it as an argument. It's a matter of personal taste. I'm not a fan of cookie-cutter humor.

I also believe this is obviously the case with nigh every stinger on that list, but again, I can't be bothered to put that claim on some factual foundation. I just think it's pretty obvious, but if you disagree I obviously can't complain.

edited 9th Jan '11 11:57:07 AM by TripleElation

^So then nothing you're saying would actually qualify as a legitimate argument for forcing a change on the wiki. This is all just about your personal subjective view? If that's the case, what's stopping you from just working Wiki Magic on the stingers you take to serious issue?

I- What-

Forget it. Just forget I ever said that.

Seriously.

If he says it's not an argument, don't bother arguing.

^It's not an argument; it's a question. I want to learn more about his positions.

But, seriously, now you got me curious.

If all this to you is just about "a matter of personal taste" and a dislike of "cookie-cutter humor," then what's to stop you from just using Wiki Magic on any stingers you think can be improved or made more original?

edited 9th Jan '11 12:05:13 PM by SeanMurrayI

Because that would involve making them not Statler And Waldorf anymore?

Or didn't you get that before?

But how is that a problem?

If we want to improve a particular S&W stinger, and the improvement involves turning it into a stinger without S&W, how is that even a big deal? What does that even matter to any of us?

edited 9th Jan '11 12:13:19 PM by SeanMurrayI

Because, since TE doesn't like formula jokes, if (s?)he were to go and remove all the S&W stingers (s?)he doesn't personally like, that would be all of them because (s?)he doesn't like the concept of a S&W (or an anything else) stinger.