Super Smash Bros.

I was just saying. I wasn't intending to bring it back as a conversational topic.

I really wouldn't want Ridley to be playable either, but I still think he's a better choice than the closest thing we got to a second Metroid character. I see Sakurai's motive in choosing the Wii Fit trainer (not that I saw it coming). My issue with Zero Suit Samus is that it hardly resembles the series it comes from. The breaking suit is her classical death animation and here we have her breaking own suit with her own weapon? In her own games the suit is mostly immune to its own weaponry, exploiting the fact is one of her main methods of traveling. In Metroid Fusion she has to hit the suit several times with its own highly upgraded, fully charged plasma beam several times before it slow it down, then Turns Red.

But even if Brawl had not introduced the Zero Suit in two baffling ways, unsuited Samus being taken as seriously as her fighting armored is weird. In the "zero suit's" debut its only "advantage" was letting her crawl under things easier; she is inferior in every other way without armor, including actually moving around under things after crawling there. All of her other forms of movement are reduced, her pistol is nearly worthless in combat and she takes hits about as well as a muffin. Someone looked past her recurring beams, missile upgrades, beam combos (Super's AND Prime's), gunships, hyper modes, power bombs, speed boosts, shine sparks and Omega Cannon to the unexpected scrappy level of Zero Mission saying "This is the missing aspect of Samus I want to display in my nostalgia crossover, directly tied to her strongest move!

Functionally she plays well enough (until a smash ball floats over) but aesthetically she is kind of boring. We turned down the aforementioned arsenal of awesome weapons and abilities actually in her games for whip, whip harder, shoot whip out instead of swinging it, shoot gun that has shorter range than the whip and flip (kick optional).

I maintain Zero Suit's moveset should be given to a different character who does not have the artifact of being based on an intentionally inferior setup designed to make the player feel weakened and then it should be tweaked to be more interesting. Nintendo/Sora can make an entirely new character if they must, say she has a future release and use Roy's presence in Melee as a justification. Make her a rogue, fugitive, jewel thief, assassin, spy, stealthy saboteur or something. Give her all the fanservice qualities that an ESRB Teen rating will allow. Call her Susan, Samantha, Sacculus or Salvus but don't call her Samus.

Midna: And this is why we don't mention things. Because no matter how much you don't want to cause an argument, people are incapable of throwing in their two cents when it comes up.

Hey, I was just trying my best to move the topic away from Ridley. We can talk more about how expanded water movement would work too, I guess. Swimming and drowning hand waved by "kid with toys".

Or you could just handwave it by saying "Shut up and punch the other dude."

Seriously, the kid with toys thing is unnecessary at this point. It's not like there's not a million possible in-universe ways to reconcile every single game series continuity with the others.

That said, in Zero Mission she was up against a well-armed army with nigh impenetrable security, and getting caught results in a Zerg Rush of enemies she can't even harm. It makes sense that she'd be able to hold her own even without the Power Suit in Smash Bros, just that...

Anyways, if (if) Wonder Eyes Red (or any of the heroes, for that matter) were added, what would he be like?

Or could he be a boss character, doing things like Unite Spring for a dodge roll?

I actually was thinking that they could make his gameplay so that he goes around the stage collecting heroes as they pop up in different areas, allowing him to increase the power of his moves.

And maybe make him similar to Zappa by having him "summon" one of the main guys temporarily and alter his moveset. Or something like that.

edited 10th Aug '13 8:16:19 PM by Nap1100

@Cider: It's clearly developers thinking that the huge powered armor has to weigh her down considerably, so taking it off lets her run fast and make multiple wall jumps. It's like how Link has atrocious recovery because of all those weapons he carries. Behold the odd logic of balancing characters in crossovers. Granted, calling the characters of Super Smash Brothers "balanced" is a huge misjudgement.

Are we allowed to talk about the characters we hate the most, or is that type of complaining taboo? I have some things to say about a certain guy from Melee. I expect the answer to be "it's too controversial".

I was thinking that there would not be any playable heroes from Wonderful 101, what with 20 being a small group for them. That is a good idea if one of them got in though.

My idea was for them to be a boss when you play as villains in adventure mode...Nintendo is kind of lacking in Hero Antagonists, the few that I know of tend to passively to hero protagonists (if the smash bros roster so far hasn't made it obvious).

Edit: I just spilled what was on the top of my head as to why Ridley would not be a worse Metroid player character than one we already got. So I say go ahead, just try to be uh..."civil" is the best word I can think of.

I dislike Zero Suit Samus's inclusion in Brawl but I don't hate her (she is Samus). I was glad Smash Bros did not adapt the translucent visor from Metroid Prime and do not care for the M suit look Sora came up with but I don't hate it. It is better than the one from the actual game. I have not gone into depth about the character I actually hate because I am not sure the refutations will be "civil", I can kind of understand your reluctance. But I have been accused of being "hostile", I don't think anyone here holds that opinion of you.

edited 10th Aug '13 8:34:03 PM by Cider

Okay. First of all: His name is Wonder Red. Not Wonder Eyes Red.

"Wonder Eyes, Red!" is his transformation phrase. Wonder Red is his hero name. It's akin to calling Viewtiful Joe "Henshin a Go Go Baby", or talking about the heroics of Sailor Moon Prism Power Makeup.

I was confused over the name. ^_^ Sorry, and thanks for clearing that up!

And second of all is, what, exactly?

edited 10th Aug '13 8:47:20 PM by NesClassic

Second... Oh yeah. I had something else to say.

I think that Wonder Red could be used, if he was alone. He still has his own superhuman abilities, jumping, and incredible punching power, even without a Unite Morph. I think that, if the game could handle it, a team setup where the heroes switch out for each other for various attacks with their signature weapons could be used. The Final Smash would be replacing their ordinary attacks with Unite Morphs.

However, that rather defeats the purpose, doesn't it? You don't want to play as the Wonderful 100 to not use Unite Morphs. They could potentially be done as a group, but they're... too big. They'd probably have to be about the size of Pikmin for their swarming and uniting to not be totally overpowered in terms of range.

Or the Wonderful 100 could be an Assist Trophy.

The only character I hate is Dr. Mario. Not only is he a rather lazy concept for a new fighter (though one that existed before), not only is he a near-total clone of someone who already has a semi-clone, but he's superior to Mario in every way. Yes, his projectile is slower and his recovery is slightly worse, but the first thing is minor while the second is barely noticeable. The idea of a clone who's the same character with a different job, but is also so much better than the original, just rubs me the wrong way.

Melee just has too many clones in general. I appreciate what Brawl did to differentiate some of them. That's why I was disappointed that Project M changed Falco back to his Melee form, without giving him anything to keep him from being a near-exact copy of Fox.

It took me a minute to figure you guys were talking about that Wonderful 101 game or whatever. I wasn't aware that was a Nintendo property.

In either case, I haven't really been paying attention to it. Guess I should.

I tend to think Zero Suit was a one-off choice for Brawl and won't return. It kind of just felt like they shoehorned her in just to point out the fact that Samus is a girl (and well, to add another female to the roster with really digging around for one). It also bothered me that Zero Suit's existence in Brawl meant Powered Suit had to suddenly become a huge burden and lost a lot of its speed, despite the fact that none of the games ever seemed to play off the suit as something that would slow down Samus at all (especially in Other M where it suddenly gained Ryu Hayabusa acrobatics).

edited 10th Aug '13 9:09:29 PM by Customer

Technically it's not, but it's a brand new IP that's published by Nintendo, so if any publisher has a claim to it, it's them.

Why the hate on the Doc? I mean, he's not someone I'd bring back (even if he is my Melee main) and, yeah, clones were a way to add more characters, but he's still a better choice than Pichu and F- I'll stop.

Anyways, I don't think clones are "lazy" and more a way to add characters while saving space for other things AND keeping schedule.

Oh, and Wonder Mart should be a trophy. Just because.

edited 10th Aug '13 9:18:30 PM by NesClassic

I'm having trouble figuring out a Final Smash for theoretical Ridley. He doesn't really have any iconically-powerful finishing move or anything.

Perhaps some way of implementing his grab-and-slam-against-the-wall he uses in Super, Fusion, and Other M?

I was thinking either the nuclear fireball of ridiculous damage from Other M, or the Turns Red thing also from Other M.

Why not just a simple grab, flying high and smashing the opponent into the ground accummulating small amounts of damage along the way (aybe from clawing at the opponent)?

What if there's no ground beneath them? Would it be a double KO? (Ridleycide?)

edited 10th Aug '13 9:29:47 PM by Midna

I'm also debating whether his B move should be his fireballs or some kind of tail move. He'd have both, of course, I'm just not sure which would be what.

I suppose B moves aren't always their most iconic move, though.

Good point. Maybe it could be a cinematic one like the Falcon Drive-by and automatically smash into the middle of the stage.

edited 10th Aug '13 9:31:02 PM by Bluetornadolp

I feel like a cinematic would be the only satisfactory way to have a Ridley Final Smash, especially a wall-grinding one.

Well anyway, there are numerous ways to blend the character series together for a crossover. Thing is, they are not being used. The closest thing we have to an 'In Universe' plot is "A right hand glove created the setting. It did this by taking dolls and later figurines out of a box and placing them on a table top. They became live figures on representations of various Nintendo game locals." You can even see all the figures in a room that has game consoles and a Nintendo Power in Melee (not mention an arm). Brawl alludes less to a 'reality' behind it, the trophy hoard is plopped on a rooftop/courtyard instead of a table, but it is still described as the world where trophies fight.

There are arguments to discredit what little bit of explanation we were given for why the figurines are fighting (Snake and Villager's invitations shown in the E3 promos) but there are no given arguments for any replacement explanation beyond it being a mysterious, powerful, cosmic entity in the shape of a glove... playing with toys and models instead of a kid.

And there is another topic, we can wild mass guess about exactly how the E3 promos make sense in connection with what little of Super Smash Bros's plot has been explained in the games themselves.Dr. Mario and Pichu are definitely my least favorite characters in Melee. Their only redeeming traits are the sound mega vitamins make because of Nostalgia and Pichu being cute. Was glad they were gone in Brawl and the rest of the moveset clones became divergent.

So now we're arguing over how Nintendo implements their crossover?

Remind me not to bring up anything ever next topic, please.