Super Smash Bros.

I've honestly seen a lot more love for Banjo-Kazooie than I have for Killer Instinct, online and off. I actually think Banjo and Kazooie are the most likely Microsoft/Xbox reps, not because they're more iconic than someone like Master Chief but because they formerly belonged to Nintendo, and Nintendo marketed them like crazy. They were also a pretty common sight on internet fan polls, pre-Bayonetta.

(Speaking of Bayonetta, if she got to keep her guns, I doubt Master Chief wouldn't get to keep his.)

Who would the hypothetical Killer Instinct rep be, though? I'm guessing Fulgore?

Bayonetta's guns and someone like Master Chief's guns are two different things. There's a reason why Snake only had explosives.

And Killer Instinct debuted on Nintendo's systems too. The thing is, that's not really all that relevant when it comes to gaming history and how iconic they are anyway. What matters is their key impact and how they shaped gaming as a whole. Sadly, the BK game didn't do that much. They somewhat helped make platforming a little better when it came to collectathons, but it didn't heavily improve anything that wasn't already there. It didn't actually majorly influence tons of later games to come. It was a one-system phenomenon, basically. It's an iconic N64 title, no doubt about it. But not an iconic game among systems or the platforming genre alone. Rayman is ultimately more notable at this point, which is saying something considering the Rabbids took over.

As for a Killer Instinct rep, it's really between Fulgore and Jago. Jago is the current star, and was always the main hero, but he has little separating him from being a regular shotoclone. Fulgore has more moveset potential overall, but also was the face of the first two games. It's still clear who the main character is now, so I think he'd be pushed the most if anyone. He also has potential with how fast his sword strikes(which is somewhat akin to Meta Knight) are, and his jaguar-like moves(basically turning into one as a part of the combo) could easily give him a Dash Attack if not more. My worry about those two is that it's hard thinking of unique moves that aren't just a shotoclone special moveset. Albeit, even if it's only 3/4 of them at best. Both have a clear Fireball(Fulgore's is using laser blades, and Jago is a parody of the Hadouken name-wise), a Rising Attack pretty much identical to the Dragon Punch(what's notable is due to the game's design, all of these attacks have 3 power levels), and they both have Rush attacks(the Jaguar move and Fulgore rushes forward with his blades). These just do nothing more than start combos, but could work fine as a Forward B. For Down B, Combo Breaker is the obvious one. My thought is that it would be most effective depending the move type used. A normal move does a weaker attack, while a special move does a strong version of the attack. Only thing that would change is the damage and knockback, but they aren't designed to otk, unlike the Counter moves, so that could help differentiate them. The other point is they can be used during actual combo moves, not just when the attack would hit, which also helps make it unique.

Besides that, they have a plethora of combos in general that can be easily thrown in as moves. Final Smash I would say is the hardest to get just right. Since there's no Fatalities of sorts allowed, that means their general finishing moves need major modification. One of Jago's is an energy beam that basically keeps going till they outright die. Fulgore's more notable one(keep in mind both of these are both Killer Instinct 3 to my knowledge, so they may not be relevant. I don't own the latest game) is basically calling down a huge laser on top of them, which might work a bit better overall.

Note that there's tons of memorable characters in many ways(T.J. Combo just for being the fun boxer and having a powerful wind-up uppercut punch, Glacius for having no strict body shape, Sabrewulf for being clearly a vampire werewolf by design, Spinal for being a fighting skeleton alone, and Riptor cause lolraptor. B. Orchid's most notable point is being sexy, which is unfortunate, since she's just another shotoclone with no key features besides the sexy. It's even one of her finishing moves, where she flashes the opponent).

To clarify about my gun argument, it's that it needs to capture the feel of his weapon but still be proper for Smash. Bayonetta's guns are basically glorified laser beams/fireworks, not regular looking bullets, which is why it gets a pass easily. I'd say her sexy demeanor is something worth getting a T for Teen for on its own merits. She's not over the top, so e10+ is justified in being kept, respectively. It'd be more akin to how Snake was forced to have explosives, but that doesn't work well for Master Chief since that's not his iconic point. Snake is an actual expert at many weapons and a spy of sorts as well. Him setting off explosives is not only notable for him as a whole, but he also is a stealth expert. This is fairly normal and fits. You can't just throw only a sword-like weapon on Master Chief and call it a day. Not that it can't be part of the moveset, but if his only weapons were slashing and explosion ones, it would feel a bit off, which could alienate fans of the character. Which is the last thing you want to do. Not only does the personality have to fit, but you still need to somewhat get the character right, even if they're a clone(Ganondorf is a prime example of this. He stills feel like the most powerful thing in the universe, despite not having magical projectiles, but also feels like a completely murderous character in design. They clearly have more moveset potential than shown, of course, but they didn't really get him all that wrong. At best, two moves really can go(Wizard's Foot for an Earthquake Punch, and Warlock Punch for Dead Man's Volley and he'd be quite a bit more accurate to his actual moves. Nonetheless, he keeps the personality and design to a pretty good degree overall, not perfect, but eh).

I mean, the average For Fun player is worse than a level 9 computer, so they're probably easier to get home runs off of.

I think you're selling Banjo and Kazooie a bit short. I mean, they are B-list mascots at best, but I definitely don't think Rayman outranks them. (Actually, I think they're about equal, in terms of public profile. Rayman has more games, but he's really not any more famous.)

I mean, this whole thing is a pie-in-the-sky thought experiment anyway, but if Sega got both Sonic and Bayonetta, and Capcom got both Mega Man and Ryu, then there's probably enough room in Smash for both Master Chief and Banjo. Together, they do a great job representing Xbox.

The problem with discussing potential third party characters is having to take into account any chance they may have and the fact that not everyone wants a specific character.

Like, not everyone is going to want Banjo-Kazooie. Conversely, not everyone is going to want Rayman either.

Speaking of third party characters, if Namco and Square got a second character in, who would they be?

My guesses for Namco would be Heihachi, Klonoa, or Lloyd.

My guesses for Square (barring Final Fantasy) are a Dragon Quest protagonist, Crono, or Sora.

Forget about Sora. He's co-owned by Disney, and I really doubt they'd want to play ball. (Unless Kingdom Hearts III comes to the Switch, which is slightly less improbable than it sounds, since Nintendo and Square-Enix are friends again, and Dragon Quest XI is confirmed to be on the Switch.) A Dragon Quest protagonist is most likely. Possibly Loto/Erdrick.

As for Namco, it'd be Heihachi. If I'm not mistaken, he was planned to be in Smash 4 but they couldn't make him work for some reason, so he got stuck as a Mii Fighter costume. I'd personally prefer Klonoa, though.

I don't understand how Nintendo and Disney aren't best friends forever. They have all the same values in their products: make amazing and simple games/movies that the whole family can enjoy, and market yourself entirely on that and almost nothing else.

I think some people are holding that Mario movie against them, for whatever reason.

I'm not entirely sure about the rights to the Kingdom Hearts original characters.

But, Disney is fine with having characters they own in a fighting game (hell, Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite just got announced), it's they don't want characters that they've created in a fighting game.

Speaking of Disney, does anyone else here get annoyed when people call Rosalina "Elsa" or R.O.B "Wall-E"?

Do people do that unironically?

I'm positive

Rosalina is probably the bigger victim of that since ROB isn't a very popular character compared to her.

Also, I think one of the reasons Disney and Nintendo aren't BF Fs is because Disney would probably rather buy them than work with them like that.

Ah, good old capitalist ambitions.

Also, I think in one interview Sakurai said they nixed Heihachi because they couldn't find a way to make him interesting as a playable character in Smash. Like, he just ended up feeling like a generic fighting guy or something.

Sakurai's goal was innovation/new gimmicks, so it's highly important(bar last second clones) they add something new to the table. Heihachi wasn't one of those choices.

That's what I mean by BK. They're B-Listers right now. KI and Halo stuff are A-Listers at this time. One is currently higher than the other. They are still awesome. Also, the Bayonetta point doesn't work; She only got in due to winning the ballot, as she's hardly an A-Lister. But to be fair, who is but some of the Sonic characters at this point? Sega gives nobody else any real enough love bar that series, so it's very difficult finding a rep outside of the Sonic series that's extremely iconic and at the very least, recognizable for all time. Being they used to be actual 1st party developers, this could be part of why. Once their system went under(the Dreamcast), they could only sell what other companies want. They closest they have to the Sonic series, imo, is Super Monkey Ball and Nights.

As for Square-Enix and Bandai-Namco, I do like the idea of a Dragon Quest character(Slime is their most notable one, being the overall mascot, akin to Pikachu, and hardly lacks moveset potential). SE has some other stuff, like TWEWY... and to be honest, I can't much remember a lot of their newer stuff. ._.; Also, from what I understand, Disney owns all of the Kingdom Hearts originals. I don't know if a clear statement exists on it, though. Sora would be an excellent addition if they can make him feel super unique. Also, trophies of non-video game characters is not too big of a deal. If they can not only use Misty's anime design in Melee for one, but outright mention Ash/Satoshi(etc). in Pokemon Trainer's trophy, this isn't a stretch. I doubt we'd ever see characters like Mickey Mouse playable unless the criteria changes to "iconic characters who also have a gaming history" and that's it. The "originated in a video game"(which is a pretty obvious statement that Sakurai means when he dismissed all Anime and Cartoon characters right out).

For Bandai-Namco, of course there's a Digimon(Agumon is the most well known, but it does feel like there's other excellent choices they could go with, depending the goal of the actual moveset. Others do come to mind, like the various Greymon-species, the Leomon-species, Renamon, and Beelzemon. I'm not sure if others are nearly as well known as they are. At least one for a less than SFW reason. >.>), but you've got Lloyd Irving which could bring out a more dual sword-focused moveset combined with lots of unique moves that emphasize his projectile options and not entirely being a regular physical fighter. Heihachi might be able to be made unique now that doesn't make him feel redundant with anyone. I do like he got a costume, at least. Nightmare(with a Siegfried alt depending the specific battle style) could be really sweet if pulled off well. He's clearly more of a keepaway fighter, as his range and power is immense. At the cost of speed, of course. Even has an easy transformation Final Smash with Night Terror.

If Capcom did want to delve into more series, there's the idea of a Hunter with various armors and using different weapons(much like how Bowser Jr. has all kinds of varied attacks), Darkstalkers in general(the issue is Morrigan having her succubus features turned down is a disservice to the character. Dimitri isn't much better. They're also both shotoclones, but most notably, Dimitri has Midnight Bliss, one of his most known moves in the game, which turns all men into women, and also women into sexier women. Neither work well. L. Raptor is a good potential option, and if only due to the cartoon alone, has a fun fan following for his silliness. He also has a lot of sound-based attack moves(varied compared to Jigglypuff who is more of a physical fighter with a slew of sound moves than focused on it) and some neat disjointed hitbox moves with his shapeshifting. Anakaris could be pretty neat as a disjointed hitbox character(akin to Rosalina and Luma, but doesn't have actually two literal separate bodies to work with), and then there's Hsien-Ko with her weapons option. She's pretty popular now, so wouldn't be a bad idea if you needed a recognizable enough one. Felicia could be a last second clone of Wolf but with unique Specials if he came back. Despite being based upon different animals, she has a more similar style to him than anyone else currently in Smash. She's a feral fighter and all).

There's a ton of potential. Regardless, I do hope that more costumes become available in general. I was kind of disappointed than many Namco-Bandai and Capcom ones weren't there. Where's my SF ones? Sega did a pretty good job with branding out in the series. I'm aware that Capcom USA is a different company to license stuff from Capcom Japan, so obviously getting additional SF content isn't as easy overall. This likely is why Ryu's stage lacks, you know, actually more than 2 songs with variations.

I'd like for Agumon to get in Smash, with a gimmick of their Down B Digivolving them to their next stage: Agumon —> Greymon —> Metalgreymon —> Wargreymon, with each form being more powerful, heavier, and with better recovery than the last. Obviously there'd need to be some size tweaking: Greymon could work as just being Bowser size, with Metalgreymon being the same size as Greymon, and Wargreymon being slightly shorter. Make the transformations require some time to perform and be easily interruptable. Also, have their Final Smash be Metalgarurumon flying in and they fuse into Omnimon.

As far as a DQ rep, I think the nameless protag from VIII is a likely candidate. What with VIII being the first one being released world wide.

That or Morrie. He got popular enough to be made into a party member in the remake.

Darkstalkers characters have a problem with getting in Smash.

Especially Felicia and Morrigan

If you can make Bayonetta work, I think you can make Morrigan work especially if the next games go back to a T-Rating which is what Mv C 3 is.

Morrigan is not that hard to tone down at this point. The real issue is if the developers can find a unique niche for her. A problem with a lot of characters is they aren't really unique from other shotoclones beyond their combos, hyper-like moves, and finishing attacks.

She's definitely a great choice, though. And pretty much the de facto Darkstalkers character now. It's not that others aren't cool choices, mostly for moveset potential, but for 3rd parties, you need to be pretty much the main character to get in(unless you're another character from the same series, then that no longer applies). That only leaves Morrigan and Dimitri. Dimitri isn't nearly as unique, and his signature ability of Midnight Bliss is a lolnope. Makes the choice easy at this point. That said, Capcom has a nice amount of franchises to look at for potential right now anyway.

I think I'd rather see Phoenix Wright, Viewtiful Joe, or (really out there) Dante as the third Capcom rep.

@ Disney: Nintendo originally had a theme park planned in Disney, but since the Mario movie that was scrapped. Today Nintendo itself snubs Disney for the theme park business and goes for Universal (Disney's main competition).

I hope Disney never buys Nintendo, because my favorite Nintendo franchise, Donkey Kong, is fairly low-profile and Disney would probably put all their chips on Mario, Zelda, and Pokémon. Look what happened after they bought Lucasfilm; they immediately shut down LucasArts, discarded Indiana Jones, and set up a massive Star Wars assembly line. If Disney buys Nintendo and you're a fan of things like Wario Land or Rhythm Heaven, abandon literally all hope.

As for Sakurai's philosophy of gimmickry and innovation at all costs, I honestly don't care for it. I'm not a fan of Tekken, but being "too generic" sounds like a pretty bad reason to cut Heihachi. We did get some mechanically interesting fighters in Smash 4, like Mega Man and Rosalina, but I'd rather characters get added because they're popular and important to their series than because they can do some neato trick. I think it's kinda ridiculous that the Wii Fit Trainer and the Duck Hunt dog got into the big Nintendo all-star crossover before King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Ganon, or Ridley.

I wouldn't worry about Disney buying Nintendo since it's very unlikely to happen due to a law about Japanese companies or something like that.

Nintendo doesn't need Disney's help to cancel those series.

They effectively axed F-Zero.