Religion, Miracles, Visions, and My Grandmother's Experiences

So. As far back as I can remember, my Grandmother- a Oneness Pentecostal Christian- has been in the habit of making rather remarkable claims.

According to her, for instance, my Grandfather could "pray for somebody, and the Lord would heal 'em- *snaps fingers* -just that quick."

She also claims that she saw in a vision what one of her daughters would look like at five years old.

On the same day she told me about that, she also told me of the time that she had a vision of Hell- a vision which left physical burns on her arms. The burns weren't a hallucination, either, she claims; later, someone happened to get a look at one of her arms and started asking her how she'd burned herself.

The point is, she told me all this back around March, and I haven't had a decent night's sleep since. I don't know who to talk to. I don't want anything to do with Christianity, but this has me absolutely terrified.

You tell me, TV Tropes- should my Grandmother's recollections be frightening me so much?

Nah. I am an atheist, and which I only became after I realised I was a Christian only due to the fact that I was afraid of hell.

So, be like me, and resign yourself to damnation!

It's not going to be that easy for me, I'm afraid. I've been trying to lose my faith for quite a few years now. I made a pretty good start of it a couple of years ago, but things went right back to square one after I had that fateful conversation with Grandma.

Well, see, I always tell myself, that even if I am fucked with the non-existent God, I at least have a few choice words for him when I cop it (if he exists, savvy?). Give the old bastard something to think about.

Just don't be afraid. Anything that require fear for it to believed or respected isn't worth respect or belief.

Consider her points but also note that she may well be she might actually be lying. Not to cast aspertions upon her trustworthiness, she may very well believe it, but several random "visions" and other currently inexplicable phenomena from a none objective source are no reason to consider that a strict God in the sense of Christianity exists.

this has me absolutely terrified

I think God would be able to tell if you were following his religion out of genuine love and faith or out of fear.

If the only thing keeping you from disbelief in God is fear, then fear not! God has already put you on his must gank list for not loving him!

Out of a desire to have at least one post that isn't anti-religion, I don't think you ought to be afraid of God. There are few phrases I dislike more in a religous context than 'God-fearing people' or 'Fear of the Lord'. I don't think it's correct or healthy to be afraid of your deity.

After all, according to the new testament he has said he will forgive everyone no matter what they do. So I think you're safe from eternal damnation.

edited 2nd Dec '10 3:43:03 PM by LoniJay

Human memories are quite unreliable, and there are a lot of things (Wikipedia) that can go wrong with them. For example, here's a good post from You Are Not So Smart on the misinformation effect. As a result of this sort of thing, you can't really be sure that what your grandmother said happened exactly the way she said it (this applies to anyone's memory, of course). It's plausible she might not have dreamed of her future child's face, but her memory changed so now she remembers the dream having the correct face in it. I'd be quite hesitant to trust my memory of a dream I had five years ago. The burns thing could easily have missing details or added bits which didn't happen originally.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like there's a clear way to test these things in the present. Still, I don't think I'd start holding Christian beliefs just as a result of this

You mean, it's not the fear of Hell, but of whatever your Granny may be up to in the future, that is the point of this thread?

Sometimes otherwise smart and perfectly normal people get weird-ass ideas. If it's not harmful to anyone, you may keep an eye on her just in case, but otherwise it doesn't seem to require any more action than informing other family members. That said, with symptoms like burn marks, better tell someone of your concerns.

As for the worship-out-of-fear, this is kinda lame. If you can't get rid of it, call it a challenge, make it your personal motivation to be a better person.

And, IIRC, the "Fear of God" was not really about being afraid, as awe, or some other feeling like this. Perhaps it's all in the translation. In essence, it's supposed to be comparable to what a child feels of its parent. But with all the myriad branches of Abrahamic religions, I can't really speak for everyone, eh?

Well, awe makes much more sense than fear.

edited 2nd Dec '10 4:16:33 PM by LoniJay

Why have you been trying to lose your faith?

Because fear as opposed to reason is a bad thing to base your world view on?

Hell in the way that she described it (as in, physically burning her) is very much a layperson's understanding of Hell. There is no fire. Hell (hrm, probably shouldn't toss that term around here,) the Catholic church has already said that it is just a metaphor, and is not an actual place.

As far as I understood it, the bad thing about hell isn't supposed to be hell itself - it's just that you're not in heaven and you're missing out on being with God.

Thats the modern understanding of it since people started asking questions like: "How do souls feel pain" and other irritating questions. To say that it is only the "lay persons" understanding of it ignores the fact that that is still a widely held belief in some sections of Christianity amongst both lay and ecchlisiastical people.

Well, see that's the problem, there's "religion as people practice it" and "religion that is logically consistent." They don't overlap as much as you'd think...

Well, what are the relevant quotes from the bible? I think there's one concerning a fire that burns the chaff away from the wheat, or something? And then there's one that goes "And they will be thrown into the darkness, where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth".

So, yeah, lots of people still believe in a fire and brimstone hell. But it's not like the only choice is between believing in eternal fiery damnation and being an atheist.

Well, first up, not everything in the Bible is literal. For example there is a passage in it which says "God is a rock, in a fortress" (well, with some pronouns thrown in.) Now, it would be silly to think that anyone would believe, or that anyone who held the Bible as revelation would think that God is actually a rock, somewhere in a fortress. It's quite easy to think that descriptions of Hell are just people trying to think of a way to describe the relative pain of being without God.

edited 3rd Dec '10 2:48:21 AM by Alexander_UE

Well, yeah, obviously you can't take everything in the bible literally.I wasn't suggesting that the chaff-in-the-fire quote was evidence for a hell full of fire. I think it was mainly a metaphor for the weak and worthless things being consumed to leave only the good stuff.

Personally I believe Hell, if it exists, is a state of mind that you inflict on yourself, and I don't believe it will be eternal. But there are a lot of varying beliefs, even among people of the same religion.

edited 3rd Dec '10 2:56:51 AM by LoniJay

The biblical interpretations very rarely mention hell at all. The first real descriptor that we can find are (if I remember correctly) either from Dante or from reinterpreted bits of revalations. And forgive me, but I'd sooner believe a 12th century writer and satirist than a 2nd century mystic for my hell based ideas.

And anyway, the idea of "hell" is too open to interpretation for any church to rely on it for conversion.

If there was really a God who operated like that, you wouldn't be able to not notice him. It wouldn't be one guy claiming he could walk for once after years of being lame. I would be thousands more 9/11 survivors and angels on the 9 o' clock news. There would have been successful slave revolts started by black prophets in the 18th and 19th century. Every one would know which God was real when a miracle happened that was too big to ignore, rather than lame healings in Catholicism attributed to saints having to compete with Indian statues that drink milk.

God is either acting very subtly, or doesn't act very much at all.

And I'm not buying a God who deliberately acts in obscure ways so that we need faith. Especially not a Christian or Jewish one. God will be with you on the hills and on the plains, but doesn't operate under experimental conditions?

edited 3rd Dec '10 5:02:36 AM by Roman

You know, it just got me thinking. If someone proved god or God through experiment, he'd pretty much become a fresh convert, since otherwise it'd take a ridiculously determined Nay-Theist, and if a fresh convert spoke out in public about finding God through an experiment, how would the others react?

But you know, I guess the idea is that it'd take quite a nerve to expect God (the Abrahamic God, at least) to show up at your request, and therefore it'd be unlikely for Him to show up (unless, perhaps, for some smiting). I'd also expect there to be another explanation, revolving around free will and leaving it to humans to choose.

BTW, in The Bible is something we could call "experimental conditions". The prophet Elijah made a bet with priests of Baal, they'll call upon their god, and then he'd try to call his, and whoever answers proves to be the true god.

The story ends in a snark, fire and blood. Whoever says the Bible is lame, clearly, mweh heh heh, doesn't know its content.

Fearmongering, friend. You granny's probably old and delusional, and/or thinks your Christianity level isn't high enough.

You shouldn't listen to anything designed to make you do something out of fear; that's what we call terrorism.

I'm not saying atheism is the answer; quite the opposite. I suggest you look for a view a little less 'roar' and a little more love.

Uhh. Right, you're grandmother could have had a vision of..."Hell" that burnt her.

Or

She could've touched a hot plate once.

Yeah, not even convinced a little.