- Given that Porrim — another rainbow drinker — has been said to have slept with nearly all of her friends, presumably including the male ones, this is likely Jossed.
- Problem with the above, The Summoner and The Sufferer were able to lead rebellions with normal trolls. Unless some of the trolls are able to copy the signals, there's no way it could work.
- There is, if the trolls who followed them were able to overcome their base instincts. Trolls are not exactly disposed toward doing this, if the violent nature of their world is any indication, but that's why the majority of trolls follow the Empire in the first place.
There are several possible reasons for this change. Amongst others: freeing female trolls from having to bear their young or raise them, increased reproductive efficiency so that the vast hosts needed to conquer and hold their massive interstellar empire could be bred; or purely for reasons of ideology.
Whatever the reason for this, it was done well outside of living memory; likely even before the time of the ancestors.
No matter what advantage this lent the Alternian Empire, it has certainly doomed what remains of it as the trolls are effectively extinct; as of current events/timeline at least.
- That would explain the Imperial Drones' existence as well.
- All we know is that uu has no idea what a boner is.
- And apparently finds things pornographic that we would consider incredibly tame.
- All of which is irrelevant since uu & UU are a cherubs, not trolls.
- Either way, it's pretty obvious that they're different, and it's equally obvious that Hussie will never explain exactly how they work.
- Alternatively, trolls reproduce by bleeding.
- Theory 1: The "fluids" trolls provide to the pails are gamete-rich slurries analogous to human semen, but produced by both sexes. In the pails, the gametes impregnate each other, producing an embryonic soup. This are the "pre-mixed fluids" the Mother Grub requires. Most of the embryos produced die in the buckets or in the Mother Grub, but some grow all the way into wigglers.
- Theory 2: When a troll is experiencing strong flushed and/or calignous emotions, it triggers the release of hormones that stimulate gamete production. Thus, the stronger a troll's matespritship and kissmessitude, the more gametes they produces. More gametes mean more embryos, and eventually more wigglers, with their genetics. This is why strong pairings produce dominant genetics.
- Theory 3: Female trolls possess an organ something like the human uterus, and this is where the fluids were mixed before they came up with the idea of using buckets for that purpose. This explains why trolls have two sexes: They used to reproduce via heterosexual sex like humans do, but they haven't done so in a really long time and have forgotten why they have sexes.
- That actually works pretty well.
- See last entry: What bothers uu is irrelevant to trolls since he isn't one. (And it turns out that it's redrom he finds so perverted since his species only knows hate-based lust.)
There is a reason why Kanaya was groomed to be a Rainbow Drinker, and why she has been drinking the various bloods of friend and foe alike. That reason? She's a failsafe in case something happened to the Matriorb. She's collecting the fluids in a similar way the Mother Grub collects them — to mix together and recreate new trolls from the slurry. How she does so is still anyone's guess, but there must be a reason to her methods.
- Has she ever drank Feferi's blood? Maybe if a Rainbow Drinker drinks royal blood, they become a Mother Grub. So she can survive against the Condense, they may have a shot.
- Yes, in fact, Feferi was the first person Kanaya drank from.
- Support for this theory; according to Porrim, all jade-blooded trolls can become Rainbow Drinkers. Perhaps their drinker status activates for this exact reason.
- Jossed. She did come back to life, someone did destroy the Green Sun, and there was a black hole involved, but it didn't happen that way.
- credit for these theories goes to bladekindeyewear
That, or Andrew called Gamzee that to mess with us.
- How will Gamzee manage it? A MoThErFuCkIn MiRaClE.
- If the theory that Gamzee is Lord English is true, he would be far more powerful than Bec Noir.
- This theory is Jossed, but he is pretty unkillable, at least.
- What's the only card that can beat the Ace? A Joker.
- It was a joke. Bec Noir can blow up planets at will, Gamzee can kill individuals very well. It's like a gun versus a bomb. One's great at killing but the other is just simply exponentially more powerful
- Who's saying Gamzee can't blow up planets either? He merely hasn't just yet.
- Um Gamzee's attack nearly wiped out their Eldritch Abomination of an endboss...which was the SIZE of a planet...
- Let's not forget who else was watching when Hussie mentioned the "most important character"...
- The problem that I see with this theory is that Bec Noir isn't a primary antagonist anymore, God Tier kids can tag-team him easily, as John has shown, and that's even without Jade's intervention and not counting PM. Gamzee/Cal are proving to be key to the main plot - rise and fall of Lord English, there's no need for additional complication here.
- Plausible at least, simply because nobody else in canon has been shown to be a ghost in the real world
- Well, not Guardian-level inauspicious, but if you comb back through the descriptions of different troll castes, read about the subJUGGulators. Or just check out the Highblood.
- Gamzee's too insane to plan something like this.
- This troper thinks not. He's very methodical, when one stops to think about it for a moment.
- Again, insanity does not equal stupidity.
- Gamzee has never demonstrated this, though he does seem to be loosely working with Doc and is fond of Cal.
- Well, we know that Gamzee's cult has been about Lord English all along, and he has psychic powers to alter people's subconscious, so... so this is still pretty unlikely because it invalidates a lot of fun about Vriska's character, which is one of the most developed and dynamic ones in the comic.
- This troper believes that it had more to do with his role as the Prince of Hope, rather than this. Especally when the orb 'Hopesplodes' when he destroyed it.
- Or, considering the influence that titles can have on the individual before the game begins, it's always possible that Eridan had all those aspirations of mass genocide BECAUSE of his status as the 'destroyer of hope'. Eridan took the opportunity, and since it does relate to his title, it was 'hopesploded' anyway. So in essence, both of these could be right.
- It's at least implied his whole genocide complex wasn't entirely wholehearted, since he knew long before the game started exactly how to wipe out the land dwellers, and his only real reason for hating said land dwellers in the first place was because they pollute the oceans. He's also shown in [S]Kanaya: Return To The Core that he's actually friends with her, and that he wants to have a part in whatever is hopeful (actually wanting to be there when she hatched the new Mother Grub). It's more likely he was reacting from Unstoppable Rage (think of all the shit people do when they're flipping out). That's not to say he's in any way justified for doing what he did, but I doubt it was just done For the Evulz.
- Since Kanaya had just come back as a rainbow drinker, it's logical that she'd be really thirsty for blood. Plus, Feferi was already dead, so...
- Actually makes a decent amount of sense. While she has attacked Gamzee, Vriska, and Eridan, they kind of had it coming - Gamzee has gone comepletely Ax-Crazy and murderous; Eridan not only went on a murderius rampage and "killed" Kanaya, he also doomed the entire troll race by destroying the Matriorb; and Vriska is a BLUH BLUH HUGE BITCH.
- Also, she only killed Eridan, and dealt with the other two in a nonlethal manner.
- Still up in the air. She's going to kill Gamzee as of latest developments with her.
- Officially confirmed in Act 6, I guess. She continues to be the sanest troll in the bunch and a Team Mom, and it seems the rainbow drinker thing is normal for her blood caste. And wanting to kill Gamzee is the sing of her sanity, not the opposite!
- The Bunny is a unique weapon that has basically no way outside of Jack to reach the trolls' session and Gamzee couldn't repair it if he found it anyways.
- The Warhammer of Zillyhoo is also a universally unique weapon and yet Gamzee weilds it.
- It is a past version of the Warhammer, which The Bunny receives just as it receives Ahab's Crosshairs- the Warhammer gets transferred to the kids or otherwise makes it into the hands of Jade's grandson, who gives it to teh Bunny, and John takes it off the Bunny.
- In fact, it was explained that all those weapons were given to Jake from the cherub session, presumably by UU; since she and uu lived in the very same meteor where the trolls ended up being after their session was destroyed, it's very likely she just picked all those weapons up from their eventual abandonment.
- It is a past version of the Warhammer, which The Bunny receives just as it receives Ahab's Crosshairs- the Warhammer gets transferred to the kids or otherwise makes it into the hands of Jade's grandson, who gives it to teh Bunny, and John takes it off the Bunny.
- That also explains why humans only have one type of romance, Karkat always was a fan of romcoms after all.
- "AG: He likes to pretend he's all vicious and 8loodthirsty, 8ut I know he 8n't got that in him. I have a sense for these things. AG: He'd 8e so pissed if he heard me say this, 8ut I think he'd cut it 8etter as a human than as a troll."
- He would have known that Terezi knew his blood color then.
- Empathic isn't the same as telepathic. He could have deduced she knows anyway, but as long as he doesn't know that, he isn't going to bring up something he's so self-conscious about. He's touchier about it than anything else, so he probably doesn't like dwelling on it himself.
- If he can feel emotions constantly, he could have read Terezi like a book presumably because there's no way someone wouldn't have been at least surprised about his blood. I dunno, the main flaw with this is that if Karkat had this power, it would've already been apparent like with all the others. Also, if he had powers like this he wouldn't have needed Vriska to nudge Jack's mind for him.
- Perhaps his powers are weak naturally (like John had little wind control) but would become incredibly strong if he reached God Tier?
- Perhaps his abilities are entirely passive; he can feel what others are feeling, but can't do anything to change those feelings except talk.
- This... actually makes sense. When Karkat isn't utterly pissed off at someone and wants them to be on his side, he's able to say what he knows they want to hear. This is also how he calmed Gamzee from his murderous rampage. Going back even further, this could be how The Sufferer gained such a following, but everyone pretty much hates pre-scratch Kankri... so... Not exactly jossed because the scratch could have altered red blood troll powers?
- Pre-scratch Kankri could be an example of someone who couldn't figure out the right way to use his powers. As Seer of Blood, being empathic should have meant that he could tell how the emotional reactions people had to the way they were treated by others would help or hinder the group, but instead of finding ways of helping people cooperate or understand how they make others feel, his emphatic knowledge that lots of people were feeling resentment at the behaivior and attitudes to people of other castes simply caused him to try and get people to stop saying these things rather than get at the root problem. This annoyed others, but because he was already used to everyone feeling resentment, he didn't notice, or alternatively ignored that because he was determined that this would be the best way to lower harmful disunity within the team.
- The bodycount has decreased by at least one for now. Two if it wasn't a just killing. God damn you Scratch, messing with everyone.
- This troper is kinda lost on what just happened but that it will not matter much in the end because she predicts that Vriska, Terezi and Karkat will all die.
- Confirmed... all events that happened will always happen, regardless of whether or not the timeline is a doomed one. However death means very little in this series.
- Exept Scratch also goes out of his way to mention that Jack, as an extension of the game, sees his fight against the hero of light as round 1 and round 2 of the same fight. Say the game expected a hero of space to die in all timelines, it may not care if the Witch of Space Jade dies or if the Sylph of Space Kanaya dies Jade died in the original doomed timeline and her dreamself died in the alpha timeline so she is probably safe, and Kanaya DID in fact die so she is also probably safe.
- That pattern may go for titles in addition to attributes. Two Knights remain and two Seers remain, Karkat and Terezi are supposed to be doomed still but Rose and Dave are in the middle of a suicide mission. Can someone else taking a bullet instead of you be considered plot armor?
- No idea what this means for Aradia.
- Hussie's lips are strong enough to revive any character. (But he probably won't)
- The bodycount has decreased by at least one for now. Two if it wasn't a just killing. God damn you Scratch, messing with everyone.
- What other narrative purpose could there possibly be for Jane's powers? Hussie hasn't shown himself to be a huge fan of Forgotten Phlebotinum so far, so yeah, it seems pretty likely that the new session, when the whole Mind Control thing is sorted out, will have all eight kids and all twenty-four trolls. And possibly a cherub, depending on how resurrection will work on Calliope.
- Jossed. The only troll to be resurrected by the end of the comic is Vriska; the rest remain dead.
- Unlikely as of what we know
- No visible chance of that now that Vriska's body was deposited into a sprite that later blew up, but "shenanigans" could explain away pretty much anything in this series. On the other hand, the whole rainbow drinker thing seems to be unique to Kanaya's blood caste, so she probably can't make other castes that?...
- Not possible, Rainbow Drinker isn't a thing, it's a description of Kanaya's caste — it can't be transferred, it isn't being undead, it's the caretakers of the Mother Grub being able to regenerate serious injury in order to better serve the Mother Grub. No resurection is possible.
- Jossed.
- This is MSPA. Has anyone ever actually stayed dead in MSPA? Jailbreak only ended because Hussie didn't feel like writing it anymore.
- This isn't PS either, this actually has a story. The problem is from a narrative viewpoint, there's no real need for them to come back (again all being relatively flat and minor characters) and it works a lot better for the story (ie, no Ass Pull resurrection) if they stay dead.
- Mostly Confirmed. Vriska is the only dead troll to return to life. Some of the others are prototyped in the B2 sprites, but they then either die again or, in the case of post-retcon Nepetasprite, fuse with other characters to become a new person.
Here, Hussie raises the possibility of Gamzee manipulating Terezi into pinning his crimes on Vriska in order to get her to kill Vriska, but why would he stop there? It's all but stated that Terezi would not have been able to bring herself to kill Vriska without the knowledge of her vision; it's a bit too convenient that the future where Vriska runs off to confront Noir is one Terezi considers enough of a Bad Future to overcome that reticence. Gamzee's manipulation could have been as simple as forcing Terezi's vision to remain focused on Vriska, blinding her to the fact that Noir would have only discovered the already-dead bodies of Karkat and Terezi, rather than killing them himself.
- Whether or not the Sufferer is literally Jegus is officially inconclusive.
- It does fit his class. Earlier, he had used sopor to "allow rage to be destroyed"; now, he "invited destruction through [Eridan's] rage". And it can't be a coincidence that the Thief stole a life and the Prince slayed the damsels at the same time as the Bard sang his dirge.
- The Rogue of Heart was Nepeta, who was already dead by the time the goods came out, and all of the trolls' quest "beds" have been destroyed with Prospit, Derse, and their individual planets. It's just merchandise.
- Though maybe not, since we now have four new kids, one of whom is a hero of Heart: Dirk.
- Still, this trooper believes that the only God Tier trolls we'll be seeing are ones in the Dream Bubbles. Plus, all of the trolls' dream selves have either died, or been used as an extra life.
- One word: Gamzee.
- There's no indication Gamzee isn't just wearing a costume that looks like a God Tier.
- Indeed, that seems downright likely after the second flash of A6I3.
- Jossed. Outside of Gamzee's probably-counterfeit costume, no additional trolls reach the God Tiers.
- So far as we know, Quest Beds are required to reach God Tier. There are no Quest Beds from the troll session left and none would be near the Green Sun anyway. On the other hand, Gamzee remains unexplained.
- IIRC, it was hinted that there are other ways to reach God Tier, but none have been mentioned yet...
- Jossed.
- Jossed. Most trolls remain at the state they're at.
- Jossed. She lives to the end of the story.
If this theory is correct, perhaps he will also be the one who finds a way to help WV.
- WV is already ok due to Godtier Feferi.
- Given a certain definition of 'resurrect', the April 18 update confirms this for Vriska... and Tavros.
- Sort of confirmed.
- They used to date too.
- Sollux is half-dead and plans to move on.
- Depending on your definition of "together" this may already be true; otherwise, we'll have to wait and see.
- Well, they certainly die together... unless the off-screen nature of that suggests one or both survives somehow.
- It's actually the Heir design. Compare it to John's. The hood is a bit shorter but it's otherwise the same.
- This troper has been told that Hussie's God tire is called 'Waste of Space.'
- Actually a bit of fanon started by a completely unevidenced edit on the wiki. And anyway, we know what a Sylph looks like, and it ain't that.
- I thought class mechanics worked the other way around — passive classes enhance the group with their powers while active classes benefit from their powers themselves.
- I, personally, took a less literal definition for active/passive than what UU claimed them to be. From a linguistic persepective, Active and Passive voice have to do with whether the subject is acting or being acted on. So, Feferi's (Hypothetically) Active role needs her to be conscious/alive to be used. However, Jane's (Again, hypothetically) Passive role involves her being affected by her Aspect.
- Then you need to redefine how almost all the classes apply to the trolls, because from what we know they reflect their actions in the game pretty well. You've effectively hidden an entire other WMG in this comparatively minor one.
- I, personally, took a less literal definition for active/passive than what UU claimed them to be. From a linguistic persepective, Active and Passive voice have to do with whether the subject is acting or being acted on. So, Feferi's (Hypothetically) Active role needs her to be conscious/alive to be used. However, Jane's (Again, hypothetically) Passive role involves her being affected by her Aspect.
- I guess this is a typo and the intended text was "Feferi's Witch title is active, so she could only utilize her powers to benefit herself, whereas Jane's Maid title is passive, so she can utilize her powers to heal others". It both matches what the title of the WMG and makes sense from the description of active/passive classes.
- By that reasoning, Vriska should come back to interact with Aranea. Although... considering...
- This could also explain why we both never saw Gamzee's dreamself die, and why his current god tier has very small, easily hidden wings.
- It also easily explains why he still has scratch marks on his face from Nepeta's attack- it's the same body.
- Might be another reason to why he almost looks completely unharmed after getting kicked off a cliff. Kanaya tried deal with him nonlethally when he fell off, so his death wasn't just.
- This theory is really a thing that happened. There's a silhouette on that Quest Bed, which means Gamzee ascended and left the dead body behind, similar to the way John and Jade did when they reached the Godtiers. It also explains why Gamzee's attack against the Black King rivaled Vriska's attack when she was already the fully realized Thief of Light during that time.
- Not in that panel it isn't! Trolls don't have Quest Beds, they have Quest Cocoons, which look very different. That's just the top of a tent.
- What casts doubt on this is what killed another "someone ascended when nobody was looking" WMG: God Tier ascensions light up the entire incipisphere, which should have alerted all the players.
- There's no indication Gamzee isn't just wearing a costume that looks like a God Tier. He has no wings for one thing, and Gamzee's hypothetical God Tier in one of Hussie's doodles (somewhere on his Tumblr for those interested) had very noticeable wings.
- Though at one point UU suggested that God Tier wings can be hidden under clothing.
- In [S] A6I3 ==> (2nd bubblr game), Meenah's interaction with Mituna confirms that wings can be hidden under clothing. But more importantly, Kurloz delivers the codpiece portion of the Bard outfit directly to Gamzee; when speaking about it with Meulin, he says "THE WICKED ENSEMBLE IS NOW COMPLETE", implying that they were piecing together the Bard of Rage outfit. Also, I just realized this: the very fact that Meenah is hunting for godtiers, trying to figure out who is one and who isn't, means that yes, it is possible to hide being a godtier! Porrim didn't even know for sure whether or not Meenah was godtier until the first bubblr game.
- Though at one point UU suggested that God Tier wings can be hidden under clothing.
- What's more likely is that they find a way to influence events while still ghosts. Aradia, Aranea, and Meenah suggest they could do quite a bit.
- This seems to be confirmed. Vriska has no interest in joining a ghost army and the two of them are instead off "treasure hunting" for some sort of Game-Breaker. They have no need to be alive to influence Lord English's defeat.
- Vriska is fully restored to life by John's retcon shenanigans, and prototypes Jane's sprite with Tavros alone.
- Sorta confirmed: John made himself the third option by punching out Vriska.
- His encounter(s) with Kurloz, who's embraced his religion's nature, makes this much less likely, though it could still be true pending other WMGs below. I think it's just as likely that the information was redacted by Lord English himself.
- Keep in mind that in the encounter with Kurloz that we saw, the only thing he said was something along the lines of "shut the fuck up and give me the codpiece".
- If Gamzee was trying to hide information on Lord English from Caliborn, A6A6A5 suggests he wasn't successful, and may have actually helped Caliborn see his own future. On the other hand, that doesn't seem to have changed the outcome.
- Jossed by Andrew's previous statements. Music team knows nothing of canonical spoilers, not even Radiation. The only people who get spoilers are the art team, and they are always extremely narrow apparently. For example in Cascade, the artist who designed Jade's god tier spoke back and forth with Andrew but wasn't privy to details about other parts of the flash. This is why each section has a slight Art Shift.
- Jossed.
- But her eyes won't show behind her red glasses anyway...
- Jossed.
- There's another fan theory that Cronus is pansexual non-romantic. Tying this in to the theory elsewhere on the page that the Scratch gives the players warped versions of the lives they thought they wanted, it's possible that Cronus is so and Dualscar wasn't. Dualscar's romantic feelings only served to make things worse for him.
- Karkat doesn't cuss and scream randomly out of nowhere. He cusses and screams because he is very, very angry about everything, all the time. That ain't Tourette's.
- Jossed.
- Tavros' inner monologue used Gamzee's typing quirk in a recent update.
- That's just him being really bad at whispering...
- What about the wings?
- Part of the outfit.
- Take another look. He doesn't have wings.
- This part of the theory is confirmed when one of his wings falls off as Caliborn shoots him. You can clearly see the strap. However, it remains to be seen as to whether he's survived the attack.
- He survived, but not for god tier reasons.
- Part of the outfit.
- They exist only to make their universe's inhabitants as miserable as possible by making their lives a living hell. Gamzee has the ability to alter reality and create nightmares in someone's mind. He's the entire reason Cal exists.
- There can only ever be one of them. For example, this is why every Lil' Cal but one has fallen some kind of horrid fate that results in its destruction. If Gamzee were a juju, this would explain why no other version of him has been seen; they've all been destroyed or otherwise erased from existence.
- Partially confirmed, though the reasoning for his survival is still ambiguous. Either it's because he's a clown, or he's God Tier.
- Jossed, as it's the same outfit that God Tier Cronus wears, of the same colors as God Tier Kurloz.
The most telling piece of evidence, though, comes from a pun on her name: Spyrope. Dragon pun, right there.
- She did take Aranea's offer, but she probably isn't spying on Gamzee. If anything, she's tormented by her feelings for him.
- Jossed.
What any of this has to do with screwing with Terezi and donning fake God Tier garb I have no idea.
- It's not that big a leap. He wasn't quite spiteful enough (or brave enough) to actively attack her when she was at normal strength, but her injuries gave him an opportunity to get revenge. On at least a subconscious level, he wanted Vriska to feel pain like he had when she broke his legs.
- I... cannot unsee this.
Well, it will probably be more complicated than that, seeing how this plan ignores Her Imperious Condescension who's likely to have her own plans for all involved, but the core points are: Vriska&Meenah steal the ring from Aranea when she's next in the dreambubble, Vriska takes it and comes back to life, and then after some events willingly gives the ring away because that's what she planned to do from the start.
- Well, John took the ring before Aranea ever had the chance to take it, then brought Vriska back to life with retcon shenanigans, and her presence ended up solving a lot of everyone's problems.
- Semi-confirmed. Aradia returns in the End of Act 6 and does indeed help Meenah and Tavros fight English. While she also appears in the last stand animation in Act 7, she doesn't do anything there besides watch Calliope destroy the Green Sun.
- That would seemingly fall under the dominion of Rage.
- However, the role of Classes can make Aspects do unexpected thing, so this theory could still apply.
- Jossed by Meenah's flashback and his title.
- As a corollary, UU might be one of these Pre-Scratch Trolls.
- The Summoner's odd "mutation" seems very suspicious considering the traits trolls acquire when they reach God Tier.
- Did you mean the Signless/Sufferer's mutation? I don't think Tavros' ancestor was ever mentioned as having a mutation.
- His wings. The Summoner has wings.
- However, as the third walkabout in A6I3 notes, it's just a mutation (no matter how much Meenah would like it to be otherwise).
- They "survived" in a way, because Meenah killed them all so they'd become ghosts instead of being consigned to oblivion.
- Aranea is Vriska's Ancestor and has pointy glasses like Terezi, so Pre-scratch Redglare may have round glasses like Vriska.
- Jossed, they are square.
- If this is true, their identities will be exposited by Dog Tier Jade, since she's merged with Dream Jade.
- Confirmed.
- Not explicitly, yet. She confirms she met trolls in the afterlife but cannot confirm which ones. Although yeah, it's probably what will happen.
- Given we know there are 3 groups of trolls, the mystery ones, the modern ones, and UU/uu, and the second were explicitly mentioned as not being the ones in question, and the third still have dreamselves, the only logical conclusion is that the mystery dead trolls are the ones Jade is referring to, though weird time shit could always enter into it for UU and uu at least. Unless Andrew's going to introduce assloads of fantrolls, that's pretty conclusive!
- UU doesn't have a dreamself anymore (but then, that might still take weird time shit).
- Confirmed.
- Aries: Neirra (Portuguese)
- Tauros: Tyrenn (Norwegian)
- Teseus (Greek Mythology)
- Gemini: Besson (Catalan)
- Thomas (Aramaic)
- Cancer: Kreeft (Dutch)
- Leo: Arysla (Meadow Mari)
- Lolcat is a valid troll name!
- Andrew isn't retarded.
- Some variant of Freija (Norse Mythology)
- Lolcat is a valid troll name!
- Virgo: Sombla (Tatar)
- Libra: Merleg (Hungarian)
- Saggitarius: Skyten (Swedish)
- Capricornus: Gadott (Waloon)
- Aquarius: Verseu (French)
- Drakma (after Skies of Arcadia's Drachma, who managed to forgive Rhaknam for killing his son Little Jack, unlike the guy he was based on. Since Eridan already draws some parallels with Captain Ahab, pre-Scratch Dualscar would draw some from someone inspired by him.)
- Both Aranea and Meenah were previously suggested names (For Vriska and Feferi respectively, of course.) It's likely based on this that Hussie will continue to name the prescratch ancestors in this way- picking up long forgotten suggestions for the scratched session trolls.
- 0 for 12. This WMG would have had better luck going with the "reused suggestions" route.
- Aradia: Not sure about this, how would Aradia's ancestor be if there were no Felt/Doc Scratch to enslave her? My guess was going to be that she wanted freedom.
- Tavros: Remember how everyone thought Tavros would be a huge jerk when he was first shown? The pre-scratch Tavros had that personality, and just wanted to be nicer and more agreeable.
- Jossed. Rufioh is very personable.
- Sollux:
- Karkat:
- Nepeta:
- Kanaya:
- Terezi:
- Vriska: Already stated.
- Equius:
- Gamzee:
- Eridan
- Feferi: Wanted to be a kind and understanding ruler.
- Jossed. Meenah had zero interest in being such.
One problem with this: Aranea's Scratched and Idealized version isn't Vriska, but rather Mindfang. It isn't the Scratched troll kids who are idealized versions of the pre-scratched versions, but rather the Ancestors. For instance, I'd bet dollars to donuts that pre-scratch Sufferer was actually similar to Karkat but wished he could be nicer, creating the post-Scratch messianic figure he was right up to the end.
- Don't know about you, but I can certainly picture Meenah wishing she could be Her Imperious Condescension. From what we know some of the ancestors became, we can probably hazard a guess for others, though it could potentially be Jossed at any time.
- The Handmaid: Likely desired to escape mortality and have a more visible effect on the world around her, ended up getting her wish in a less-than-desirable manner.
- Jossed. Damara actually wanted to serve Lord English. She got that wish, alright...
- The Summoner: ?
- The Helmsman: ?
- The Sufferer: May have been much like Karkat but wished that he could be nicer, which on the near-Utopian pre-Scratch world could help him fit in.
- Jossed. He's a guy who likes to talk about social problems, and I mean talk and talk and talk. It's not unreasonable to assume he wished he had some real injustice to fight. Though it bears noting he is aware of his post-Scratch counterpart's deeds, and disagrees with his methods.
- The Disciple: ?
- The Dolorosa: Perhaps she wanted to care for a child troll?
- Porrim seems to have wanted to care for Kankri specifically.
- Neophyte Redglare: Desired to be a force for justice.
- Marquise Spinneret Mindfang: Aranea admitted what she wanted to be.
- E%ecutor Darkleer: Possibly wanted to be a merciful leader.
- The Grand Highblood: Wanted a life of mirth, that would keep him laughing joyfully.
- Orphaner Dualscar: Desired a powerful rival who would be a Worthy Opponent to him. There's some possibility that he had a caliginous crush on Aranea even before the Scratch, too...
- Her Imperious Condescension: As previously stated, one can definitely see Meenah wanting to be a leader, and her troublesome, likely self-centered nature making her about the last person you'd want ruling you.
- This is pretty much confirmed by her reaction to Aranea's tale, even though she didn't actually want to lead in life.
- The Handmaid: Likely desired to escape mortality and have a more visible effect on the world around her, ended up getting her wish in a less-than-desirable manner.
- The fact that Meenah's plan is why they still exist was pretty much confirmed by dialog that first brought it up. The rest (her not being evil, her caring about her teammates, and her "stealing" their lives), all still WMG fodder, though.
- Judging by Meenah's interaction with her friends in the bubbles, she was an actual friend for most of them - for those of them who had friends at all, to be precise. She appears to know them pretty well, and judging by her interaction with Mituna, Horuss and Eridan's-loser-ancestor, she really cares. Kankri's intervention in all these cases served to contrast his uncaring and impersonal "right" with Meenah's outwardly jerkish but personal and caring attitude.
- UU: for instance, a hero of life and a hero of doom have aspects as different as can be.
UU: bUt if their classes are different enoUgh as well, that is, one active and the other passive, remarkably there is a chance they coUld end Up with very similar abilities!
Now, the only potential similarity between Sollux and Feferi's abilities is that Sollux can leave a dream bubble (by virtue of being half-dead), while Feferi is hinted to manipulate them in some way ("It is the past, brought back to life by a witch!"). But what if it's not Sollux and Feferi; what if it's Sollux and Meenah? Given that Meenah is a Thief of Life, it's conceivable that she could steal life to come back from the dead, at least for a little while. It's possible that this is why GCat set up Roxy's meeting with Meenah - so that Meenah will follow her Dream Self out of her dream bubble and into...wherever Roxy's Dream Self ends up.
There may be robot possession involved, followed by Meenah battling the Condesce. Because with so many duplicates around, it's surprising no-one has fought themselves yet.
- The Handmaid: Rogue of Time
- Personal guess, simply because the Handmaid was forced to serve Scratch/English and wasn't allowed to... well, go rogue.
- Damara is the Witch of Time. Should've guessed that, really, since Aradia's name refers to a goddess of witchcraft if I recall.
- Personal guess, simply because the Handmaid was forced to serve Scratch/English and wasn't allowed to... well, go rogue.
- The Summoner: Prince of Breath
- Personal guess is not Knight, as it would just be an Active-Passive flip. Also, not the Bard IF the Grand Highblood was the Page, since it would just switch Gamzee and Tavros' classes.
- OP here. Just realized that I kinda eliminated all of the other Prince options, so I guess the Summoner is.
- Nitram can't be the Page, so he must be the Rogue of Breath (out of what's left). Assuming he doesn't end up a Lord.
- The Ψiioniic: (Knight, Bard, or Page) of Doom
- Not the Prince if Dualscar is the Mage, as it would just switch Sollux and Eridan's classes.
- Mituna's the Heir of Doom, which in hindsight, seems like it would kind of suck.
- Not the Prince if Dualscar is the Mage, as it would just switch Sollux and Eridan's classes.
- The Sufferer: Heir of Blood
- The Sufferer is basically Troll Jesus. John, the Heir of Breath, is a Messianic figure. If the Sufferer was also the leader of the pre-Scratch session, there's a precedent.
- Kankri is the Seer of Blood, which only exacerbates his parody of Social Justice bloggers- he "sees" problems everywhere.
- The Sufferer is basically Troll Jesus. John, the Heir of Breath, is a Messianic figure. If the Sufferer was also the leader of the pre-Scratch session, there's a precedent.
- The Disciple: (Seer or Witch) of Heart
- Not the Maid if the Handmaid is the Rogue, as it would just switch Nepeta and Aradia's classes.
- Well I was on the right track, but Meulin is the Mage of Heart. Alas.
- Not the Maid if the Handmaid is the Rogue, as it would just switch Nepeta and Aradia's classes.
- The Dolorosa: (Seer or Maid) of Space
- Got this one right (ignoring the Seer bit...). Porrim, as a feminist, probably isn't happy with being called the Maid of Space.
- Neophyte Redglare: (Maid or Witch) of Mind
- Only two combinations if the Handmaid is the Rogue: If the Disciple is the Seer, then the Dolorosa is the Maid and Redglare is the Witch. OR, if Redglare is the Maid, then the Dolorosa is the Seer and the Disciple is the Witch.
- Or they could defy all expectations and make Latula part of what was a presumably male class, the Knight of Mind.
- Only two combinations if the Handmaid is the Rogue: If the Disciple is the Seer, then the Dolorosa is the Maid and Redglare is the Witch. OR, if Redglare is the Maid, then the Dolorosa is the Seer and the Disciple is the Witch.
- Marquise Mindfang: Already confirmed to be the Sylph of Light.
- E%ecutor Darkleer: (Bard or Page) of Void
- No possible combinations for Prince combined with others' restrictions. Not the Knight if the Sufferer is the Heir.
- Since Nitram can't be the Page (out of what's left), that makes Zahhak the Page of Void. Assuming he wasn't a Lord.
- Although since the Knight in chess is a horse, it would make some sense.
- No possible combinations for Prince combined with others' restrictions. Not the Knight if the Sufferer is the Heir.
- The Grand Highblood: (Knight or Page) of Rage
- Personal guess is not Prince, as it would just be an Active-Passive flip.
- And just to completely discredit me, Kurloz was the one class I said he wasn't, the Prince of Rage.
- Personal guess is not Prince, as it would just be an Active-Passive flip.
- Orphaner Dualscar: Mage of Hope
- Eridan insists that magic isn't real. I cannot be the only one who the irony appeals to.
- Cronus is the Bard of Hope. Ironic, considering nobody will listen to his music.
- Eridan insists that magic isn't real. I cannot be the only one who the irony appeals to.
- The Condesce: Already confirmed to be the Thief of Life.
So... Feferi's predecessor has Vriska's class Vriska' predecessor has Kanaya's class, hers has either Terezi's or Aradia's.
- If she has Aradia's: Aradia's predecessor has Nepeta's class, hers has either Terezi's or Feferi's.
- If Feferi's it completes a cycle with only 5 characters.
- If Terezi's: Terezi's predecessor has either Feferi's or Aradia's class.
- Aradia's is impossible since her class is already Kanaya's predecessor's.
- If Feferi's it completes a cycle which encompasses all 6 females.
- If she has Terezi's: Terezi's predecessor has either Feferi's or Aradia's class.
- If Feferi's it completes a cycle with only 4 characters.
- If she has Aradia's: Aradia's predecessor has Nepeta's class, hers has either Terezi's or Feferi's.
- Terezi's is impossible since her class is already Kanaya's predecessor's.
- If Feferi's it completes a cycle which encompasses all 6 females.
There are two possible routes, let's do the same with the male characters.
Karkat's predecessor has Equius' class, his has either Tavros' or Gamzee's.
- If Tavros':Tavros' predecessor has Gamzee's or Eridan's.
- If Gamzee's: he has either Karkat's or Tavros'.
- If Karkat's, it creates a cycle with only 4 characters.
- Tavros' is impossible since his class is already Equius' predecessor's.
- If Eridan's: Eridan's predecessor has Sollux's and his predecessor has Karkat's, Gamzee's or Tavros'.
- Tavros' is impossible since his class is already Equius' predecessor's.
- If Karkat's, it creates a cycle with only 5 characters.
- If Gamzee: Gamzee's has either Tavros' or Karkat's.
- —> Tavros' is impossible since his class is already Equius' predecessor's.
- —> If Karkat's it completes a cycle which encompasses all 6 males
- If Gamzee's: he has either Karkat's or Tavros'.
- If Gamzee's he has either Karkat's or Tavros'.
- If Karkat's, it creates a cycle with only 3 characters.
- If Tavros': Tavros' predecessor has Gamzee's or Eridan's.
- Gamzee's is impossible since his class is already Equius' predecessor's.
- If Eridan's: Eridan's predecessor has Sollux's and his predecessor has Karkat's, Gamzee's or Tavros'.
- —> Tavros' is impossible since his class is already Gamzee's predecessor's.
- —> Gamzee's is impossible since his class is already Equius' predecessor's.
- —> If Karkat's it completes a cycle which encompasses all 6 males
Again there are two possible routes.
- The Sufferer is an Heir
- Dualscar in a Mage
- Both have The Summoner as Prince
- The Grand Highblood is either a Knight or a Page
- The Psiioniic is either a Bard or a Knight
- Darkleer is either a Page or a Bard
- Pre-Scratch Dualscar is confirmed as the Bard of Hope
- Confirmed. Meenah and Damara did indeed have a fight, but it ended differently than in the post-Scratch universe.
- Jossed. Kankri and Porrim don't really like each other.
- Confirmed? Gamzee raised them.
- Also, it brings a new meaning to what Vriska told John, that Karkat had ruined things by making them work together. If Pre-Scratch Karkat had been the Sufferer, and had brought an era of peace to the trolls, that might have contributed to the Pre-Scratch trolls' inability to win their session.
- This is Jossed by the fact that the non-peaceful nature of the Trolls only exists as a result of Doc Scratch's influence, which only exists in the Post-Scratch universe. The Sufferer arose as he did because he was responding to the unjust nature of Alternia in contrast to his memories of the Pre-Scratch universe; a Pre-Scratch Sufferer cannot fill this role in deed or prerequisite. Aranea DOES, however, imply that she has a crush on the Pre-Scratch Signless, and even without that, she likes many of his ideas. Furthermore, the Pre-Scratch Trolls weren't created by Ectobiology at all as part of their Session Glitch, which means Karkat and company don't even have Pre-Scratch counterparts. Whatsoever.
- Incorrect: The Trolls were duplicated like the Kids were, and Aranea's necklace shows that Karkat or the Pre-Scratch Sufferer did something. Doc Scratch's narration referring to the glitch still mentions the players came from the sky, a clear reference to meteors. Moreover, Aranea has stated her society had flaws too, and a Pre-Scratch Karkat could easily have protested that.
- Karkat's ecto-breeding retro-actively created the Ancestors, but it is specifically stated that being born outside of the Session's timeloops is a calling card of Lord English. And while Alternia did have flaws, I don't see anything that'd require a messianic protestor given that the place was pacifistic to a fault.
- Jossed: She confirms that she wears the pendant in honour of the post-scratch Sufferer. Also, she did not wear it before dying and scratching her universe, and coming to learn of the Sufferer's deeds by dreambubble shenanigans.
- This is Jossed by the fact that the non-peaceful nature of the Trolls only exists as a result of Doc Scratch's influence, which only exists in the Post-Scratch universe. The Sufferer arose as he did because he was responding to the unjust nature of Alternia in contrast to his memories of the Pre-Scratch universe; a Pre-Scratch Sufferer cannot fill this role in deed or prerequisite. Aranea DOES, however, imply that she has a crush on the Pre-Scratch Signless, and even without that, she likes many of his ideas. Furthermore, the Pre-Scratch Trolls weren't created by Ectobiology at all as part of their Session Glitch, which means Karkat and company don't even have Pre-Scratch counterparts. Whatsoever.
- The Handmaid: Seer of Time
- Notice how she had her music boxes at the end of the game, before Meenah exploded them all. She must've known what was going to happen, so she brought them with her.
- Jossed; she's the Witch of Time.
- Notice how she had her music boxes at the end of the game, before Meenah exploded them all. She must've known what was going to happen, so she brought them with her.
- The Summoner: Knight of Breath
- He protected low-bloods and animals in A2. I could see him being confident and an Alpha Male, protecting his friends in A1, which is why Tavros idolizes Dave. I could also see him as Prince.
- Jossed; he has to be the Rogue of Breath.
- He protected low-bloods and animals in A2. I could see him being confident and an Alpha Male, protecting his friends in A1, which is why Tavros idolizes Dave. I could also see him as Prince.
- The Ψiioniic: Page of Doom
- He was the figurehead of the Condesce's ship in A2, he was the herald of Doom, bringing it everywhere.
- Jossed; he's the Heir of Doom.
- He was the figurehead of the Condesce's ship in A2, he was the herald of Doom, bringing it everywhere.
- The Signless: Heir of Blood
- Heir = default protagonist class? It just seems to fit, like The Summoner's.
- Jossed; he's the Seer of Blood.
- Heir = default protagonist class? It just seems to fit, like The Summoner's.
- The Disciple: Witch of Heart
- Her romance with the Signless transcended the quadrants. Jade has been shown to alter her environment around her; altering external space. Maybe as Witch of Heart she altered the traditional romance standards for them in A1?
- Jossed; she is the Mage of Heart.
- Her romance with the Signless transcended the quadrants. Jade has been shown to alter her environment around her; altering external space. Maybe as Witch of Heart she altered the traditional romance standards for them in A1?
- The Dolorosa: Maid of Space
- She was the maid/slave for Mindfang in A2, so why not?
- Confirmed as Maid of Space
- Redglare: Rogue of Mind
- Same as Signless/Summoner, just a hunch/guess.
- Jossed; she's the Knight of Mind.
- Same as Signless/Summoner, just a hunch/guess.
- Aranea: Already revealed as Sylph of Light.
- The Expatri 8: Mage of Void
- Random guess. Could also be Bard.
- Jossed; he has to be the Page of Void.
- Random guess. Could also be Bard.
- The Grand Highblood: Prince of Rage
- He destroyed through his rage/insanity in A2, just a guess at this point.
- Confirmed as Prince of Rage.
- He destroyed through his rage/insanity in A2, just a guess at this point.
- Dualscar: Bard of Hope
- Random guesses, could also be Mage. Mage would be funny because of the whole magic thing.
- Confirmed as Bard of Hope.
- Random guesses, could also be Mage. Mage would be funny because of the whole magic thing.
- Meenah: Already revealed as Thief of Life.
- Confirmed.
- Confirmed.
- Side note: Mage is typically associated with male practitioners of magic outside of Homestuck. But that's all irrelevant to what's already been confirmed.
- Jossed.
- So,Mituna's the heir of doom, and heir are speculated to mean 'protected by X'. Therefore, Mituna was protected by doom.
- This theory's pretty popular, there's even a fanfic based on it!
But they are closer in nature to Mituna's than Gamzee's: while Gamzee's personalities are both evil, Mituna switches between raving asshole and Extreme Doormat. Kurloz was most likely a genuinely decent person (aside from the whole cult thing) before his vision of Lord English, which along with the guilt from deafening Meulin made him go deeper into his religion and triggered his evil manipulative cultist personality. Good!Kurloz is most likely unaware of his other side's existence, considering his friendly interactions with Meulin before the codpiece is presented to him.
It's actually Calliope. The 'Vast Honk' that Kurloz heard was a desperate scream from what remained of her within Caliborn, transcending both space and time (incidentally, both Calli and Caliborn's powers in the game) so that somebody, somewhere, would hear it and try to set her free. It should also be noted that between Lord English's dual personalities, Calliope was definitely the more 'mirthful' between them. The word 'Calliope' is also related to the circus, similar to the clown-like Gamzee and Kurloz (the first of which has a song dedicated to him called "Midnight Calliope".)
With that said, Gamzee and Kurloz are actually conspiring not to help Lord English, but to get close enough to him to set Calliope free, as it was alluded to earlier in the story that the only way to disable Lord English was to say her name in his presence. That's why they are keeping their movements a secret from everybody whilst maintaining the guise of being psychopathic clowns — they're making sure nobody, especially not Lord English, is aware of this.
- My god. This is BRILLIANT. The likelihood of this WMG being confirmed is low, but god do I want to believe. What a twist!
- Might be linked to the loss of Kurloz' voice; an intentional gambit on the part of LE's crew to prevent him uttering Calliope's name aloud.
- Borderline jossed, as Calliope isn't "hiding" within Lord English, she's outright killed.
- Damara seems to be a parody of anime in general.
- Seeing as how going God Tier is shown to heal people's past wounds (note Vriska's arm and eye), and Mituna's just as mentally damaged as before (and it's mentioned that he "overexerted" his powers, implying that there was some sort of physical brain damage), this seems unlikely.
- However, a few altrenate timeline God Tier Mitnas show during the Ministrife with the helmet. Saying it is for recognition purposes doesn't work, as he was shown in the same flash without his helmet. It's still a possibility.
- Nonono, you got it all wrong. It is clearly Gamzee who she'll kill.
- Given that Caliborn has now shot Gamzee and that his godhood has been called into question, it's unlikely (at the VERY least) that she'll kill him.
- Then again, the dream bubbles may give him a way to continue to exist(which may result in a hilarious Call-Back in which Lord English does the exact same thing).
- Actually, he's still alive... somehow.
- Given that Caliborn has now shot Gamzee and that his godhood has been called into question, it's unlikely (at the VERY least) that she'll kill him.
- Relevance neutered by A6I4 revelations.
- Kankri wanted to battle injustice; he ended up horribly killed and it became a capital crime to speak his name.
- Meulin, as a shipper, may have wanted true love, or may have wanted to spread the word of what she believed in; her love was killed in front of her and she was exiled from society, never to speak to another living troll again and only to be known through her cave-paintings.
- Horuss wanted to be more than just a cog in the machine; he stepped out of his assigned place when he freed the Disciple, and was exiled for his pains.
- Rufioh wanted to be a hero; his rebellion made things worse, he killed his own matesprit, and he presumably died horribly.
- Mituna wanted to help his friends and maybe get access to cool technology into the bargain; he got stuck in the engine.
- Aranea wanted to be a swashbuckling hero and to have a cool story to tell; she became a sexually abusive narcissist who got killed by her own matesprit.
- Porrim wanted to take care of Kankri; she saw him die horribly, and ended up a slave.
- Porrim wanted a place outside the system; she ended up outside its protection.
- Cronus wanted a worthy rival and a cool story of his own; he ruined his kismesissitude, and ended up being murdered by a clown.
- Cronus wanted to be treated as he deserved. He wound up being treated exactly that way.
- Damara wanted revenge; she got stuck serving Doc Scratch.
- Damara wanted to bring everyone else down with her; she saw her own life ruined in the process.
- Latula wanted to bring justice and protect the innocent; she got lynched by the very people she was trying to protect.
- Kurloz and Meenah wanted power; he got to be head of his beloved church and she got to run the whole Empire, and in the process they (assuming Aranea was right and Kurloz wasn't always a psychopath) ruined or ended the lives of everyone their Pre-Scratch selves ever cared about.
- To support this theory, the Beta Kids suffered from this too:
- John wanted to be a famous comedian/magician/movie star; Poppop!John ended up achieving this after a life of being raised by Betty Crocker, a figure he despises.
- Jade wanted to live among animals; Grandma!Jade ended up living among giant murderous alien creatures after being essentially exiled with only her adoptive grandson for company.
- Dave wanted to step out of Bro's shadow and be an individual all his own; Bro!Dave grew up without an older brother and accomplished many things, but had very few friends as a result.
- Rose wanted to write stories about super powerful wizards and killer Eldritch Abominations; Mom!Rose twisted those stories into propaganda against The Batterwitch and almost got into a lot of trouble for it (and later died).
- To support this theory, the Beta Kids suffered from this too:
- Terezi's speech to Gamzee strongly implies that this may be the case.
- Aranea: Ah, my friends!
Meenah: Friends? I thought you were just using us!
Vriska: That's what I remember!
Both: Aradia?
Aradia: (slowly gains a Slasher Smile as they all prepare to gang up on her, brandishing their fists)
Aranea: Oh no...please, let me explain! No, you don't understand! I didn't mean to—No! Please! NO! AHHHHH! (they all gang up on her and beat the living daylights out of her)
- Introducing strange concepts such as equality, compassion and "love that transcends the grid" (note that Doc Scratch seems a little befuddled by the concept), into an otherwise barbaric and bloodthirsty society just might throw a wrench in his and Lord English's plans in the end. While modern trolls have forgotten the Sufferer, it is stated that his teachings have persisted, even if as 'superstition' and largely ignored or not known.
- Both men were known to be charismatic leaders and great orators.
- Both men were revolutionaries interested in overthrowing a class-based society.
- Both men supported the lower and working classes.
- Both men were despised by the local authorities.
- The Sufferer had candy-red blood; Communism is associated with the colour red.
- Karkat's weapon is a sickle, one of the symbols of the Soviet Union.
- On a more tongue-in-cheek note, this would make him Russian.
- For that matter... it looks like she used its code to alchemize a chainsaw. Considering Trollian's transtemporal viewscreen, that code may be recoverable. And we've already seen that there are Alchemiters and probably totem lathes in this asteroid.
- She does have the code still. The grist cost is huge though.
- Looks like it will happen in another manner than predicted. Whether Roxy has or has not manifested a "working" Matriorb, it's clear she's capable of it.
It would explain the unique black blood and why it looks like a drone. It's not a troll or lusus and therefore has no hemospectrum obligations. It serves a different purpose, hence why it is presiding over a court instead of pails-or-death.
- If you're using Hammerkind to explain John, then Jokerkind explains Gamzee.
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