Headscratchers / Ocean's Eleven

Headscratchers from multiple movies

Saul's lifesavers

• Regarding Saul, why is he always eating Life Savers? I mean, wouldn't a constant intake of sugary candy make ulcer pains WORSE?
  • They're not lifesavers. They're Tums, or some other ulcer-helping medication.

Headscratchers from Ocean's Eleven

SWAT bags

• The SWAT officers at the end. Why did they have the containers they had in the first movie? Surely someone thought -that- was odd.
  • Who's going to question SWAT officers in the middle of a mission? Besides, they had a good reason for it, they needed to rappel down into the vault with the stopped elevator and then breach the door. So they have gear with them.
  • After The Reveal, I figured they brought the hooker flyers in, and carried the money out.
  • No, the bags on their backs are clearly empty when they're on their way in.
  • And the hooker flyers have left the casino before the "Swat team" arrives (see below).

Flyers

• In Ocean's 11, where did the flyers filling the bags come from? They can't fit in the trolley Yen hid in. You see him pull empty bags out of the trolley. They weren't brought by Linus (Who had only a small briefcase), nor by Danny (who wasn't supposed to be there, brought nothing). They weren't brought by the "SWAT team", because the bags leave the vault LONG before the SWAT team gets to the vault. How did the bags make it into the vault, so they could be delivered out of it? And the bags HAD to be full of flyers, or Benedict's people would've noticed the fact the bags contained nothing.
  • In one of the commentary tracks on the DVD, someone points this out and admits it was a screwup on the part of the writers.

Twice the gear

• So the original plan in 11 was for Danny to be the NGC representative and to go down the elevator alone. That plan died when Danny made himself known to Benedict, forcing Linus to step up. Danny later come up with his own side-plan (not telling Linus or the others) so he can go in the vault and help the others. Except... Why did Linus' suitcase contain TWO sets of climbing gear to rappel down the shaft? If the plan never called for more than one person doing it, why bring twice the gear?
  • Nope. Danny being there was always part of the plan; Linus was probably the only one at that point who genuinely thought Danny was actually "out". It was a test for Linus, to have him prove himself to Danny and Rusty. Note how nobody at all is surprised when Danny is in the vault except Linus. Linus's suitcase had two sets of gear because Danny was always supposed to be there.
  • "It was a test for Linus, to have him prove himself to Danny and Rusty" - what was the test, exactly? They thought he might chicken out if Danny's not there, or what?
  • And Linus never asked about the second set of gear because ...? And don't tell me he never checked the suitcase, no one would not check on the gear upon which THEIR LIVES depends on.
  • Indeed. And if your life is going to depend on the gear, better to double up on it just in case if you can fit it, right?
  • I'll grant you that, but that'd be nice if any of this had been shown on film. Admittedly the part about Danny still being in makes sense (coz he's the one that reverse pickpockets the cellphone onto Tess).
  • If any of it had been shown on film it would've given the whole sequence away.
  • Nope. Flashbacks, like they did for the swat team or Danny putting the cell on Tess. Plenty of ways to resolve this.
  • I'm not sure there's much needing to be resolved, really. The most important information (that Danny is there and the whole thing was part of the plan) is given to you by Danny's presence and when he says it was a test to Linus ("You didn't trust me?" "I do now."). Him having two sets of equipment is a fairly minor detail, and a flashback on that would've just been, "Hey, why's there two pulleys?" "Oh, one's a backup."
  • Speaking of which, the "backup Pulley excuse" makes no sense anyway. If the pulley stops working halfway down the shaft, it's not like he can pull the spare one out of his ass and use it. He's got 30 seconds and no means of climbing back up!
  • Sure it makes sense. You'd wear both at once so you have redundancy on the way down. If one screws up somehow, you've got the other one already attached.
  • Besides, it's Linus we're talking about here. He was probably told there was climbing gear in there, and never even bothered to open the case in the first place.

Saul's purpose

• So besides the distraction to the security team in the info center, what purpose did Saul have? At all? Yen could've easily pocketed with him the explosives to blow the door, seeing as they're not much larger than the pins used to blow them, and the big Ella Fitzgerald (The taping switch) could've been done right after the pinch blew anyways.
  • Tying up Benedict's second in command in the info center, so Benedict cannot pass Linus off to him in order to go to the boxing match (He's in a hurry after all), and thus Linus can pickpocket the codes off Benedict. Also, the tapping switch could not wait for the pinch, as Yen would've run out of air.
  • So then I guess I'm going to ask why the explosives needed to be in the briefcase in the first place. Is there any other reason that other than Rule of Cool?
  • Well, you gotta get a briefcase in the vault anyway, may as well get the explosives down there while at it? Yen's already in a tiny box with 6 empty duffle bags and an air bottle, guess every bit of free room he gets he will like?
  • But they ran those explosives under the possible eye of casino security. I guess they were lucky that only Benedict handled and observed the explosives, who knows what might have happened if someone more specialized took a look?
  • Look at how Benedict searches the case. He just lifts the tray holding the explosives out and puts it to the side, disregarding it entirely, because he has no reason to suspect that the "jewels" were anything besides what they looked like. You'd probably need to do a considerably more indepth study on them to figure out what they really are, and it's highly unlikely that's part of the place's standard operating procedure.
    
    Also, having the explosives in the briefcase gives Saul an excuse to be in the security room. If he's not there, he can't distract Benedict's second in command, and the whole thing goes to pot.
  • I meant, why did the explosives have to be the jewels in the first place, not why they needed the jewels— but I know the answer to that, because it's cool. I thought it was cool, too.
  • Not just because it's cool, but because they know the briefcase will be searched carefully and the best way to keep the explosives from being discovered is to make them look like something that's supposed to be in the briefcase. Saul tells Benedict he has something valuable he wants stored in the vault, Benedict opens the case and sees "jewels," and sets them aside to search the rest of the case for anything hidden, which he doesn't find because the only thing "hidden" in the case is the one thing he's already stopped paying attention to.
  • Also, the pinch can't be used to do the camera switch: You can't hack a network if it's powered down. They had to do the camera switch before or after the pinch went on. No other way around it.
  • The second reason Saul was there, other than what's been mentioned above, is because he needed to provide a distraction (faking a heart attack) for when Linus is inevitably spotted on the cameras. He goes down, the camera operator runs over to help, and Livingston loops the camera's feeds while they're not looking.

Tess and Terry

• In Ocean's Eleven Tess tells Danny she left him because she was tired of his dishonesty and that she was fed up with him putting his "work" above her. Why on Earth did she go for Terry Benedict then, considering he's the epitome of the workaholic and while Danny's only a thief, Benedict's reputed to be a murderer? There's no way she could have missed the fact that Terry's married to his work and there's no way she could have not heard the rumors.
  • Coz, probably that Terry laid some sweet moves on her. He offers her a job that lets them see each other at work (thus negating the workaholic part). Presumably Terry's skills at romance outweigh a few rumors. Also, the scene seems to indicate that it's not the stealing she objected to, but that Danny had lied on being a thief.
  • We're shown that Benedict runs his life on a strict schedule. He schedules her into his day, so he's reliable and consistent. Presumably she rarely knew where the hell Ocean was or what he was doing.

Lasers

• In the elevator shaft scene, why have the lasers red? They're supposed to be hard to pass, but making them visible makes it a lot easier. How about invisible lasers?
  • That's just the usual Hollywood Rule of Perception at work: the lasers are visible so the audience can tell it's not just an empty shaft.
  • Same goes for the motion detection in the vault itself. In reality, those too would be invisible to the eye.

Ground Sensors?

• In the first movie, tunneling to Benedict's Vault is said to be impossible because he has such good security measures "If a groundhog nests within a thousand yards, they know about it." So why is it that in the third film, Banks' casino (With even better security) has no such sensors? They'd have picked up the drill weeks before it even got close enough to the tower's foundation. Heck, wouldn't the drill have triggered every casino in town with such sensitive sensors?
  • It's implied that Benedict was the only one with sensors like that. Banks is paranoid, but all the paranoia in the world won't help you if you don't think of the possibility that someone might tunnel in.
  • So wouldn't Benedict be calling the cops LONG before they come to him to finance the second drill?
  • Most likely Banks just thought they were the small earthquakes that he was warned about previously.
  • Benedict's sensors were probably calibrated to detect localized sounds of a few people digging a hole, not widely-dispersed tremors like a huge tunnel-borer would produce. Southern Nevada typically has dozens of natural tremors every year, and he wouldn't want a bunch of false alarms disturbing his operations.
  • Benedict needed to be paranoid about underground threats because his vault was underground. Banks keeps his diamonds at the top of his casino, and we never see where his casino's vault is located, but it's probably adjacent to the computer room that's staffed 24-7, making "dig a tunnel to sneak in" a useless strategy to rob either.

Benedict Outsourcing his Beatings?

• Why does Benedict hire an outsider to beat up Danny. Besides the fact that he runs the risk of Danny overpowering the guy (Since he's not restrained or anything), he's already got two sizeable goons who do his goon work for him and whom he clearly trusts enough to send them to find Danny. Not counting that bribing two guys is harder than one.
  • Deniability. If Danny (or someone else who gets this treatment) tries to sue Benedict over it, it's easy to shift the blame onto the random bruiser who is not legally on his payroll. If he had his actual thugs do it, it would be too easy to nail him to the wall.

Two Mister Walshes? Or Offscreen Teleportation powers?

• In the scene where Saul has the explosives sent to the vault, Benedict assigns his casino manager Mister Walsh to take Saul to the security room to view the monitors. Almost immediately after, Linus starts his part of the con on Benedict. Walsh suddenly appears in the room where Benedict takes Linus and Frank and Benedict tells Walsh to escort Frank out. The next scene goes back to Saul which in this time frame is basically immediately after Linus's act, and Walsh is there with Saul.

Other Two Casinos?

• In the beginning of the movie, Ocean says that he will rob three casinos: the Bellagio, the Mirage, and the MGM Grand. However, we only see them rob the Bellagio. As far as I could tell, the other two movies don't cover them robbing the other two casinos. Did I miss something? Did it happen and we didn't see it? If not, seeing as the "three casinos" line is a hook in the trailer, wouldn't that be false advertising?
  • The three casinos (implied to be next door to each other) had a shared vault at the time (located underneath the Bellagio). Benedict stored enough cash to cover all three casinos' chips there, because having one super-secure and constantly-monitored vault is more cost-effective than having three of them.

What was lost in transmission?

• "And for God's sake, whatever you do, don't, under any circumstances..." What was Rusty going to tell Linus before he was interrupted?
  • Nobody knows. It was a joke that was written exactly that way, and there's nothing else to it.
  • A Riddle for the Ages, then.
  • Right before Linus leaves, Livingston tells him "Don't screw up." Maybe he was completing the line?
  • I always assumed that he wasn't interrupted. It was an in-universe prank on the new guy. He deliberately planned to get himself cut off like that so Linus would be left hanging.

Didn't Benedict notice that the codes were stolen from him?

• Linus did switch the suitcases, and the one he replaced Benedict's suitcase wth might even have contained some false code, but shouldn't Terry notice that the codes were wrong? Or did Livingston change the codes to the ones contained in the Benedicts's suitcase once he got in?
  • They weren't in a suitcase, they were on a card in his pocket. This is why they needed Linus. He's a phenomenal pickpocket while also being unknown to Benedict, who already knows Danny before he meets him through Tess.
    • OK, so they were in the pocket, - the question still stands though...
    • Benedict only gives a quick look at the codes when he's handed them to confirm they're not repeats. Beyond that he doesn't reference them until he needs to use them. The swap happened after that happens and was so smooth he didn't even know about it. By the time he feels he needs to use the codes is after Rusty tells him he's being robbed.

Why the whole fuss about Yen, Danny and Linus getting into the vault first?

• Stealing the pinch (the Fridge Horror of the use whereof have already been discussed on the Fridge tab), contacting Bruiser, risking Yen's life... while in the end they all got there posing as a SWAT team anyway. Remind me what exactly those three did there what couldn't be done by the SWAT team? The explosion part could actually fit even better that way - executed by the SWAT team instead of "the trio", it would raise no suspicion even if detected by the Benedict's security staff. And the entire footage of them breaking into the vault was fake anyway. So what's the purpose?.. So that they have enough time to pack the money into the bags? Hell, they're the SWAT team - will Benedict's security really try to interfere before getting the clearance from them? And why wasn't Linus on the SWAT team in the first place? Unlike Danny (detained by Benedict's men) and Yen (who had his own "route"), there seems to be no real reason why he didn't just go in there with the others.
  • Yen's job: The whole reason Yen has to go in is because he's the one who has to blow the vault doors open for Danny and Linus, and then the others to get inside, with the explosives smuggled in as Saul/Zerga's "jewels". The SWAT team conceit would have no bearing on getting in: the only way they can bypass all the vault's countermeasures is to blow the locks off the vault doors, which are on the inside, and the only one who can get inside is the little acrobat who can fit into a cart.
  • Linus's job: He's the one who not only has to grab the elevator codes off Benedict, but being taken to the back rooms of the Bellagio by Benedict, he's the closest to infiltrate the elevator and get into the shaft that leads to the vault. While Danny is planning his way in too, Linus is his second (notice that Linus has the spare batteries for the detonator when it fails). Because of the pinch, they both need to be in the elevator shaft before it blows and cuts all the power and locks them out of the shaft; the elevator is Linus's way in.
  • Danny's job: Him getting red-flagged, then removed from the floor, then being roughed up by Benedict's heavies is a Kansas City Shuffle. Terry thinks Danny showing himself the night before and night of is him up to something, and taking care of him puts his mind at ease thinking he's already nabbed the mastermind. Meanwhile, Danny paying off his friend Bruiser allows him to get into the vault via the ducts above and assists Linus by knocking out the vault guards. Also, by returning back to the room with Bruiser, it allows him an alibi to confess to a lesser crime of violating his parole, which for the time, keeps him away from being linked to the team and diverting Benedict's attention, while accomplishing his second goal of getting Tess to leave Terry for him.
  • Why not the SWAT to begin with?: As mentioned, they can't get inside the vault doors without Yen blowing them first. They could've gambled with all going in as a SWAT team, but it takes variables out of their control: if they are locked out, they have to hope Benedict is willing to open it himself, or not send one of his own men to open it for them. By blowing the vault ahead of time, they're already in and buy enough time to bag $150 million, while again, allowing Danny to run a diversion to both infiltrate, exit, and win back his wife.

That unknown guy

• The guy shouting "Saul!" to Saul posing as "Lyman Zerga" - was he a part of the plan, or was it just a coincidence? If the latter, was it a happy or unhappy one for the gang?
  • Why would they plan for someone to blow Saul's cover like that? It was an unfortunate coincidence, and they swept it aside as soon as possible.
    • Their plan, if I understood it correctly, was to make Benedict a bit distrusting towards Saul so that he wouldn't be allowed to personally accompany his suitcase to the vault (and thus be in a position to distract the video camera watchers when Livingston was to replace the tapes). Hence Saul's remark hinting at him having been arrested or even imprisoned earlier (about feeling of the metal on the wrist). The question is - was that shouting guy a part of the same plan or just a coincidence?
    • A coincidence is my impression. Calling out Saul's actual name is hugely risky way to create a vague sense of untrustworthiness: Benedict might look into the name for real and find out who Saul is. Fits better as a way to show how well Saul does this sort of thing, that even recognizing him for real doesn't kill the plan.

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Headscratchers from Ocean's Twelve

Celebrity Paradox

• The somewhat infamous use of Tess's resemblance of Julia Roberts as a plot device brings up a number of questions involving the Celebrity Paradox. The most obvious one is, of course, why does no body recognize Danny, Rusty, and Linus as George Clooney, Brad Pitt, and Matt Damon, not to mention the rest of the Eleven. Made worse by the film's All-Star Cast, making every character played by an actor people would recognize. This brings up the additional, smaller question of what the in-universe Julia Roberts was doing rather than filming Ocean's Eleven at the time she was (Assuming the movie doesn't exist in this universe, otherwise the Eleven would be rather creeped out about the film perfectly imitating their lives), which opens the floodgates for a whole ton of other questions involving whether or not actors and movies exist in the Ocean's Eleven universe... The only possible comprehensible explanation is that all the actors that exist in our universe exist in theirs, but Julia Roberts is the only one that looks the same in both, though this leaves questions about the Ocean's Eleven movie's existence open, and doesn't cover the effects that the actor's different looks would have on their careers in-universe as opposed to ours... Yeah, it's a bit of a Headscratcher explosion.
  • Just because Julia Roberts and Bruce Willis exist in their universe doesn't mean anyone else has to.
  • And furthermore, Reality Is Unrealistic. I work with a guy who has a strong to Noah Antwiler. That doesn't mean the guy I work with is Noah Antwiler nor would I think anything other than "Hey, that guy looks like The Spoony One." I do call him "Spoony", though.
  • As someone who looks a lot like Harry Potter (and that was before I got glasses), I'll say that most friends of celebrity look-alikes learn quickly not to bring it up.
  • Heck, it's even mentioned in the film that Tess doesn't like being reminded of her resemblance to Julia Roberts, and even bites Linus's head off when he bring it up.
  • Presumably the actual in-Verse Julia Roberts was on maternity leave and not making any movies at the time, given that Tess was playing her as heavily pregnant. That's not the sort of thing they could count on getting away with if the in-Verse Roberts wasn't expecting, because celebrity-gossip tabloids plaster that sort of baby-bump story all over the place.

Julia Roberts ploy

• Why, exactly, was the Julia Roberts ploy necessary in Ocean's Twelve? The actual plan involved them getting caught (so Rusty could get Isabel back), they just figured they would get caught after pulling the (staged) job. All the ploy did was get the others arrested as well, when they could have easily just stayed put when everyone was picked up in front of the museum the first time. There's no reason for it. 1) The Night Fox already thinks they're busted and he's won, they don't need to actually fake the attempt for his benefit. 2) Getting Isabel back happened during their extradition, which happens either way.
  • The Julia Roberts plot was necessary for the Night Fox's benefit. If he saw all but three of the Eleven get arrested, and the other three just walked away, he would be more suspicious than if the remaining three tried a new job. Especially since walking away would mean Benedict would have them killed. They had to look absolutely desperate to get the job done.
• It was not necessary for the heist itself, just for the Night Fox (as explained above). And it should probably be pointed out that this fact considerably "mitigates" the infamous Celebrity Paradox twist: the ploy was never supposed to "work" in the first place - or rather, it was supposed to work in a rather different way.

Lasers

• Don't the lasers need a set of receptors? The point of laser grids is that the alarm is sounded if the beams are BROKEN, if the lasers AREN'T shining on a receptor. These lasers are pointing at empty floor.
  • Not if they are Laser Distance Measuring devices.
  • If they do measure distances, then there must be a sophisticated system of measuring where the laser is supposed to be pointing and comparing that something akin to a 3D laser scanned data set, triggering an alarm when there's a significant discrepancy. (Okay I've thought about this more than I needed to)
  • And in case that isn't a problem, the grid is said to be changing "randomly". Night Fox would need access to the RNG, and calculate a dance hours in advance. If he were THAT deep into the network, couldn't he just shut the lasers off?
  • As shown in the movie, the lasers don't fire entirely at random, but go in sweeping arcs. Presumably, it's the initial firing that's random, but once a laser starts its path it's pretty predictable. I interpreted that scene as simply that the Night Fox is so good at capoeira that he improvises his moves around the sweeps.
  • A bit of Fridge Brilliance. Since the flashback was being played from the Night Fox's point of view, he could have been deliberately embellishing his achievements.

Linus's faux pas

• How did what he say translate to calling Matsui's niece a whore?
  • It didn't. Linus's mom reveals later that Matsui, Danny, and Rusty ran a "Lost in Translation" on him, pranking him with what looked like a cryptic spy-speak conversation that was actually nonsense, just for fun.
  • Not sure if it was JUST for fun though: Linus had clearly expressed a desire to play a more prominent role and thus, in Rusty and Danny's eyes, it may have been necessary to take him down a notch...

Timing of the Heist

• I may be misreading the signs and cues, but it seems like the Ocean crew steals the egg before the Night Fox even issues the challenge. Did they, or am I misreading the order of the scenes?
  • The Night Fox issues the challenge, BEFORE the transportation of the egg happened (He told the Ocean crew that "the egg WILL be carried by armed truck, from Paris to Rome").

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Headscratchers from Ocean's Thirteen

Rigging Ordinary Slots

• In Ocean's 13, Danny's gang has a way to rig the progressive jackpot on slot machines. When they use it in Banks's casino they had to let a random stranger win the money, because of the fancy infrared computer thing. But they can also use it on some ordinary slot machine in the Las Vegas airport. Why not use that to win a lot of other jackpots? That's hundreds of millions of dollars they could walk off with.
  • Danny and his crew are far too classy for that.
  • That and there's no challenge. What more exciting? Stealing millions on dollars in an Ocean's-esque heist or rigging slot machines?
  • THAT, and the fact was that they weren't trying to get money for themselves, they were trying to screw with Bank by letting strangers walk out with all his cash. 'Cause, you know, it was personal.
  • Also, having one random casino-guest score a jackpot within minutes of the opening, although statistically unlikely, is still plausible enough that Banks's security-computer (which wasn't yet shut down) let it slide. Sure, they can use the same trick again some time, but there's no rush: screwing with Banks and getting away with it is their priority now.
  • Bank was already getting suspicious about multiple jackpots in his casino without Greco's help. This is exactly the sort of thing any casino management would keep an eye out for.
  • That form of rigging takes time and effort as they would have to be done through the central server that operates and tracks the machines. The odd machine giving a payout (remember, the only machines shown to do so was the progressive in the casino and the airport one at the end) is not unusual (the casino one was even questioned but classified as legit), but multiple ones in totally different locations would ring some bells in the gaming commission. Considering the slots was not the goal, only what was needed was set up.

Livingston and Roman

• In Ocean's 13, Livingston manages to convince Roman to help him rig the blackjack machines, but once he is arrested a spanner is thrown into the works in the form of Bank tracking his fingerprints. Since the group knew ahead of time that Bank had access to the federal fingerprint database, isn't that something Livingston should have taken into account before saving his own ass at the expense of the rest of the operation?
  • It's implied that this was part of the Batman Gambit: Roman was comfortably in place and ready to step in, and the FBI agent who arrested Livingston was also an undercover heist member (specifically, Linus' dad).
  • True, but Livingston specifically asked Roman to keep his asking for help on "the down-low". Thus, if Roman did so, none of the other crew members would have known that Livingston's arrest was just as planned. It's possible Roman could have agreed to help and then told Danny and the others without Livingston's knowledge, but it still shows an uncharacteristic lack of planning when they have to scramble to keep Livingston's identity and known associates (i.e., themselves) out of Bank's system. And Roman couldn't have turned Livingston down, and then shown up anyway, because when he's arrested Livingston gives the little smirk in the squad car that says that being taken away and his machines replaced is just what he wanted.
  • A new wrinkle that is introduced that I just now noticed after rewatching the movie: Well after the point when Livingston is supposedly arrested, he is back on the communicator telling Rusty exactly which slot machine to prime for the back door program, with no surprise from Rusty or anything to indicate that his being there is in any way out of the ordinary.
  • I had thought all of the above had been done to throw Terry Benedict off. They knew he had hired Toulour to double-cross them, and thought it likely that he'd be tapping their phones as well, so they made it seem like Roman was outside the plan, and that Livingston getting arrested was a Spanner in the Works, when really, it was all part of their plan.
  • The plan was for Livingston to get arrested to fool Bank into accepting the rigged machines. They knew that Bank had contacts with the FBI, but either they didn't take into account the possibility of Bank using that connection to check Livingston's fingerprints and find his associates, or they expected for that search to take more time to begin, giving Livingston the chance to make those changes.
  • Exactly as above: For all we know Roman was always part of the plan to get the rigged machines in place, in such a way that Bank couldn't worm out of paying out any winning. The only change to the original plan that Livingston made and wanted to keep quiet was Roman's involvement in programming the machines, not just in switching them in.
  • There was no "for all we know" if you look at the film again. Specifically pay attention during the evacuation of the casino during the "quake" one shot is over a worker drinking a beer. That's Roman dressed as a Shuffle Royale employee. The two red pen caps in the shirt pocket give it away if you're unsure, same as what he had at the beginning. Roman did say he'd doubt if he heard the last of it...

Bank's crimes

• What did Willy Bank do that was so bad? In the scene where he and Reuben meet, he tells Reuben that their deal is off and that Reuben is going to sell his shares in the casino back to Bank. Reuben does, then immediately has a heart attack. Except that there was absolutely no reason for Reuben to give in. Bank didn't threaten or force him or appear to have any leverage at all. What was to stop Reuben from saying, "Go soak your head, Bank. You can't force me to sell."
  • Except the part where, when Reuben asks "What, are you going to throw me off the roof?" Bank says, "If I have to." So, yeah, there was some force involved.
  • Bank says, "I don't want to." But if that's the angle, then Reuben was just Too Dumb to Live, going up to a high building in the middle of the night to meet with somebody who would be willing to throw him off (which Bank iterates to Danny when they met).
  • Reuben didn't believe that Bank was going to do something like that to him. When he says "What, are you going to throw me off the roof," he's being sarcastic. Essentially, he is telling Bank that Bank can't force him to sell. Until it happened, he didn't expect Bank to screw him over at all. And even if Reuben did expect Bank to try and cheat him out of half of an expensive casino, there's a big gap between a hard-dealing businessman and a murderer. So when Bank suddenly implies that he's willing to kill Reuben, it comes as a shock and a surprise.
  • But I thought it's mentioned later that Banks has a history of ruthlessness, surely Reuben's should have seen it coming. On that note, given this is Banks' fifth (or 6th or whatever) casino/hotel, surely he either has the bad rep already or why does he suddenly flip and become evil, it must be one of the two.
  • It was actually sort of mentioned when Ruben goes on his whole spiel about defending Bank and having faith that he (Bank) wouldn't screw over Reuben as Bank had done to all his prior partners.
  • And, besides, they both "shook Sinatra's hand". There's an understanding between guys like that. Unless you're a schmuck. Reuben didn't realize Banks was a schmuck, despite being warned about him. (Y'know, when you put quotes around "shook Sinatra's hand", it looks like it means something dirty, doesn't it? Or is it just me?)
  • It's not just you.

Bank not going to the cops?

• Why is Danny so sure Bank isn't going to the cops after what Danny and his crew did to them (While leaving a ton of evidence behind)? Part of their plans hinged on Banks having contacts with the cops, so why the sudden change in character?
  • Because going to the cops is against the thief rules. Oh, he hasn't cared much about the rules before, but he's got enough illegal stuff going on that if he calls in the cops, it will take every other thief in the country two seconds to get him nailed to the wall. Bribing some cops for access to their database is one thing, but he can't afford to have them actually looking over him, his hotels, or his finances.
  • What illegal stuff? The contract with Reuben? If that was so easy to prove the illegality (And Reubens signed the damn thing), Reubens wouldn't have gone catatonic. He'd have gone to court. What else is illegal in his casino? the waitresses-as-models things is explicitly a legal loophole (And not one the cops would care about since it's more civil than criminal law anyway). Otherwise for everything we see him do he goes out of his way so it can't be considered illegal (Get papers for the chefs to show up on time rather than have them work under the table. Get the city council to change the signeage leading to the casino. Etc...). The only remotely illegal thing he'd have is tapping into the FBI fingerprint databanks, and he can just cover that up by removing the computer involved and burying it somewhere deep in the Nevada desert. Banks has no reason to go to the cops. Plus seeing as Banks stands to lose his casino, even if the cops find something illegal on him, it'll take them years to prosecute and he might be able to escape it. And the cops finding another crime doesn't exonerate them from arresting Danny and Cie for the crime the committed. There's no "The guy we robbed was a douche so it's not a robbery" in Nevada law.
  • Bank can't call the cops because he has no proof Danny was behind it, at least nothing that would stand up in a court. Also, similar to Terry's situation in Eleven, calling the police would mean admitting that you were outwitted, garnering further humiliation. There was also the fact that given how Linus' parents have been able to pose as FBI agents, they'd be able to sabotage any possible investigation.
  • No evidence, other than the giant drill. Linus' fingerprints around the stolen display case, Roman's fingerprints all over the tempered card shuffling machines, employment records of two of Danny's known associates in the factory that produced the tempered dice, the fact Danny pretty much confessed to it on camera (What casino doesn't have cameras on its front entrance, and Bank's are capable of measuring pupil dilation and heart rate so I doubt they can't register sound), the fact that Danny's known accomplices have left their finger prints on all the stuff. But yes. No evidence was left behind.
  • There is little evidence of actual felonies or crimes; plus they have a FBI agent on their side! Let's recap:
  • Linus' prints are only on the diamonds' case, which they lifted away with said prints on it, so there is no way to link him to that. Toulour, being there, can serve as their scapegoat, or Abigail can: she brought someone to a restricted area AND turned off the cameras. That is pretty suspicious and very uncharacteristic of her... They could spin this as her taking revenge for Bank's treatment. It doesn't matter if Abigail denies, as long as Bank believes it. (If someone feels sorry for what Bank could do to her... imagine her entering police's protection in exchange for telling all of Bank's nasty secrets...)
  • The drill is problematic yes, but no one but the crew knows it's what they used or where it is immediately after the heist. They can retrieve it and transport it away (they brought it in in broad daylight!). If someone even finds the tunnel and figures out what kind of drill would have made it, I can't believe the crew didn't flub any paper trail that can reveal who bought those drills in the first place.
  • Livingston's prints are only on non-rigged machines. Caldwell could admit to jumping the gun, and having no evidence that Livingston really wanted to switch the machines, and that maybe the crook has turned a page. At worst, his former company can pursue Livingston for lying on the interview, but not much else. Roman's prints may be on the rigged machines, but he's not among Livingston's known associates; plus, he may not even be in CODIS, seeing as he's European. No, Bank probably does not have access to Interpol, even if Roman IS on file there; or Mama Caldwell could help there. If Bank checks on the new ones, yes, he'll find them rigged, but how do you prove it irrefutably so as to put Livingston behind bars? Heck, seeing as Livingston's prints are only on clean machines, they could say that whoever hired him knew about his criminal past and just wanted a patsy for their own illegal activities. Again, what matters is creating reasonable doubt, so a conviction is impossible.
  • As for the dice or the dominoes, no one (but the crew, again) knows they are rigged. Seeing as the dices are supposedly undetectable (the casino even checked them before putting them on the floor) and are regularly changed, in a couple days, all the tampered-with dices will be out of play anyway. Or they could ask their pit boss "friend" to get rid of these, as well as the modified roulette balls. Even if someone suspects anything, that Mexican factory does not seem the kind of place that keeps perfect record of its employees, especially with the riots upending everything; on the contrary, they have a whole factory-full of grateful guys ready to swear they did not see the Malloys, no sir; heck, Virgil and Tuck wouldn't even have used their real names anyway!
  • Danny didn't admit to anything on the front steps of the casino. He just either failed to correct Bank or showed that he didn't take Bank's threats seriously. Bank, on the other hand, did very clearly threaten Danny, which could be held against him... which is one more reason to not go to the police (in addition to Bank being old-school and probably preferring to handle things himself, as well as how any kind of unsavoury stories could crawl out of the woodwork, what with how he treats his employees).

Get people out of the casino with their winnings

• In 13, it's mentioned the plan revolves around getting everyone in the casino out before they can lose their winnings by playing more. Fine. Except... The people running out during the "earthquake" are running out with their chips - not money. Only Danny's friend who beat him up in the first film cashes out his chips - the rest are seen grabbing their stacks of chips and running out. Those are worthless until they cash it in. So by the end of the film, Banks hasn't lost any real amount of money. So for one, they'll have to return to the casino anyway, where they are likely to play again and lose their chips back to the casino. Furthermore, since Banks knows he's been had (Coz Danny more or less rubbed it in his face), and the Thirteen have left a ton of evidence behind (Stolen diamond, giant drill in a tunnel somewhere, magnetron cellphone, tempered machines), he's in a position where he could just decide to refuse to cash in the chips since they were obtained illegally, and are stolen goods. Effectively he's not lost much money (and what he's lost is likely insured) so it seems far from certain he's not going to meet those financial benchmark he has to meet to keep his seat running his casino.
  • He can't report the Thirteen or otherwise claim the money was made illegally for the same reason as above: An investigation would result in everyone finding evidence of all his far more illegal dealings. As for the chips, they don't really care about hurting the casino. If Banks gets kicked out due to the scandal, then they don't care that everyone returned and lost all their money again. Alternatively, they may have had another way of keeping the money out of his hands. Benedict might be able to poach the customers by offering to buy the Bank chips at normal value. Though that might be illegal, if it's not, it would be a profitable way to screw over Banks while maintaining good publicity.
  • Except that Benedict has no reason to buy back the chips. That would lose him money, since none of those chips represent money the person ever invested in his casino. Sure, the people might then spend it all at his place, but he's essentially giving over half a billion in free games, which is both out of character for him, and never mentioned in the movie, AND a bigger sum than what all three of his casinos contained in money on a particularly busy night in Eleven. So even if we agree on the "Banks can't go the cops coz of nebulous crime stuff", that still leaves Banks with no loss of money till people cash in those chips. You say they don't care about hurting the casino, but they do. That's the ENTIRE reason. Banks has to clear a specific sum of profits in his opening month. The very reason they staged this, is to hurt the casino so it cannot clear that sum. You might say they want him kicked out over a scandal, but that runs contrary to the very thing they say on screen as the goal for their operation. It might be true in another script, but not in the one that was actually filmed.
  • Because it would be further scandal and humiliation if Banks were to suddenly revoke what thousands of people believed were legitimate winnings. Even if Banks were to try and go public over the sabotage, the casino's reputation would be ruined anyways. Banks' partners would most likely prefer to eat the loss and let the whole matter be quietly forgotten rather than make a big stink about it.
  • Except they won't eat the loss. If they honor the chips when it opens the next day, then people will just start gambling again and the casino recoups. That's basic gambling theory AND what the characters literally say will happen. If they don't honor the chips, they don't lose anything either since no money was paid out.
  • Quoting what Roman said: they'll all think it's their lucky night, but you'll never get them out of there with their winnings, they're going to gamble it all back. That's true, and the exit strategy takes the "think it's lucky night" out of the equation. It's one thing to be there in the casino after hitting it big, thinking you are Mr. Luck and that you are an invincible high roller. But the situation is entirely different, these are people who went back to their hotels, cooled down and spoke with their relatives, who most likely would say "don't even DARE to lose of that cash!". Granted, some would just go for it anyways, but odds are most of the people returning next day will cash out their chips.
  • On the other hand, gamblers wouldn't be gamblers if they didn't believe in luck. Having an earthquake-warning go off and force you to evacuate a casino isn't going to make you think it's a very "lucky" spot to be, is it? Plenty of those players are bound to cash out their Bank chips, head up or down the Strip a ways, and lose their new winnings at somebody else's casino.
  • Well all of Danny's friends (like the one we actually see cash in) are going to get the bills as soon as possible. Ditto for the high-rollers, as that is part of the deal. That there would be most of the winnings that day, as the higher you bet, the most you get. That leave us normal people. The 30-million lady may have cash in already or at least did not eat through all that by the time the "earthquake" hit; after getting that lucky break AND surviving said natural disaster, she may think it wise to cash out. Among all the other "normal" people (like you and me), at least a few would be sensible enough to cash out, at the very least so they can try some other casino or bet it all at the stockmarket. We all know lottery winners have a crap record of actually holding onto their gains in the long term, but it doesn't matter here, as long as they take said gains out of Bank's casino.
  • As for Benedict buying the chips, he has no reason, except getting back at Bank... He owes no loyalty to Reuben, but Twelve did show him to be petty and to hold his grudges. So, he could buy those chips, or exchange them for chips from the Bellagio; then he would cash it all out at Bank's. That way, he makes sure Bank gets his comeuppance and it's a zero-sum operation for him. He might even get ahead, if people starts betting that new money in his casinos.
  • Except that by law it's illegal for him to cash the chips without the issuing casino's permission or agreement. By law, all chips need to be cashed at the casino that issued them. When a Casino in Vegas cashes in your chips from another site - it then needs to cash the chips back to the original casino himself (Most casinos have agreements or rules for this). There's no way for Benedict to cash in that many chips without Banks' approval. And if he has no intention to cash in the chips at Banks = then the point is Moot. Banks lost nothing, as the chips are worthless till they are cashed out in his own casino and don't hurt is bottom line. So even IF Benedict buys all the chips, he has no way to force Bank to honor the chips (Especially since Banks know they were won fraudulently and can prove it thanks to all the evidence the Thirteen left behind) and so long as Banks doesn't honor them, he's not losing money. It'd be Benedict who is losing all the money (Since none of those chips were bought with money in his casino, and any winning the people have from now on are on him) while Banks only has to worry about his personal diamonds being stolen.
  • Not really any evidence to speak of. The only real physical evidence of any of the Thirteen Bank would have is Linus' fingerprints on the diamond case...which was pulled out of his casino completely. Even if the hotel makes back the money they lost that night, that wasn't the point of the hit in the first place. The hotel still lost that money, if only for a night, and that would be all Bank's investors would need to muscle him out of his ownership and takeover. The point wasn't to rob the hotel, it was to screw Bank over in the worst way because he betrayed what was seen as a very sacred brotherhood(that being "The Men Who Shook Sinatra's Hand").
  • Unless Bank calls the cops, he won't have any grounds to refuse to honor the chips without alienating every gambler who gets word of this. There's also the trouble of making all the eventual repairs and making the place operational on time to earn the 500 million Bank needs. The bad review the V.U.P. will probably give won't help things.
  • Indeed, given how a fair number of those chips will be ones that the gamblers legitimately handed over their own cash for, refusing to honor them would be grounds for Banks to be arrested for mass theft. As for their winnings, the same constant recording by cameras, computers, and sensors that Banks would have to present in court as evidence of the Thirteen's intrusion would also constitute proof that those wins took place. Unless he came up with incontrovertible proof that all the wins were fraudulent, he's still going to have to pay off a bunch of them if not all.
  • Proving the winnings are illegitimate isn't too tough when the tempered dice, balls, and machines have all been left at the Casino.
  • Here is a possible theory : All Ocean's gang want to do is to "make the casino lost That much money at the opening night".....Or to put it simple , it's all about "how much" for the "opening night"...People are most likely not going back into Bank's until dawn.(Both for typical evacuation plan standard reason and pure fear). And by than , even if they go back and gamble it all back. The board of Bank's casino can still play on the numbers(by some basic accounting method , and moves number around) to focus on "how much lost at opening night" instead of "how much lost after people gambled all those winning away". Use it to against Bank , and kick him out.....)
  • What's more, even if Bank successfully proves to the governing board that it was all a massive set-up against him personally, what would be their logical decision on how to deal with it? That's right: if there are people who are prepared to go THAT far just to screw with Bank, it's better to keep BANK as far as possible from our hotels and casinoes. Nothing personal, just business.
  • Two things of note: first thing you have to realize that the floor work of the team was a revenge con, not for any material gain. All the money they won on the floor was donated in Benedict's name. And yes, the majority of the people will probably just go back to gambling. That wasn't the goal. The goal was to hit Bank big on opening night to an amount he can't recover from. Whatever they do afterwards (they're not likely to go back after they had the opportunity to cash out the next day. Some will, yes, but only some on average) is up to them and not the team's concern. They just need to stop the money from going back in that night once Greco is back up. This goes into the real revenge plan, to hurt Bank's reputation. He's made a big show about how everything was his doing and how it's going to top everything he's ever done. Opening night comes and not only did everything publicly go wrong for him, he even had his precious pervious victories stolen. That's going to take years to recover from, if he ever does. Also Bank's is doomed as even if the casino performs as well as he claims (aka the 5 million per day), at best it's well short of the 500 million profit he needs to keep the casino (the loss of 500 million on opening night means he's needs to rope in a billion on first quarter, or an average of 11.2 million per day). Once that happens, he's gone.
  • Second was the exit strategy talked about. That has very little to do with most of the gamblers, only the pre-arranged whales and the team themselves. It was about their exit strategy, not everyone's. The discussion about getting everyone out was so they had a substantial cover. A handful of people leaving (especially if some of those are considered staff like Frank) while everyone else is staying to keep gambling is suspicious. Everyone leaving all at the same time over a matter of safety isn't.

Bank Casino Design

• Okay, this has been bugging me for the longest time, but how does an elevator work in a building shaped like a triple helix?
  • The sections aren't that curved. A shaft that starts at the shadowed side of a section could run most of the way up that section, ending at the unshaded side of a floor. Then a second elevator could take people the rest of the way up. The floor where people change between elevators could be dolled up as an "observation deck" and fancy lounge.

Pit Bosses in a Coma?

• Just prior to the Greco being knocked offline, the control room gets a call from a pit boss asking for permission to book a high-value bet. This establishes that The Bank has pit bosses and hasn't automated the whole thing. So where were they when the Reverse Big Score was going down? Part of their job is to look for suspicious activity, and everybody winning would definitely qualify. The control room being out of contact (thanks to that brilliant decision to route everything through the computer) wouldn't help, since pit bosses have the authority to throw the brakes on any time it looks like the casino is being cheated. We know Danny bought one pit boss in roulette, but what about all the rest? Unless these guys were in a coma or locked in the broom closet, they should've been halting betting in their pits until they had control on the phone.
  • Reverse Big Store, not score. It’s a type of con.
  • Halting all betting on opening night because people are winning is pretty much going to be a death nail for a casino. If gamblers see that a casino is going to shut down when people start winning, they simply won't go at all.
  • You have to remember, that whole situation took place over the span of three minutes and it wasn't "everybody's winning", it was "more people than expected were winning", particularly the whales. It's not overly suspicious without a coordinated central observation which was taken out. By the time the pit bosses could coordinate in amongst themselves (remember, they still have to manage the floor as well and it was during a hotbed of floor activity) the Greco was back up and the "earthquake" started.

Reuben's legal options?

• Obviously it wasn't mentioned because it would have removed the need for the caper, but wouldn't Reuben have grounds to sue Bank? I can't imagine what he signed on the roof would hold up in court given that he'd have been murdered if he hadn't signed it.
  • Well, it would be a "he said - she said" kind of situation so conviction would probably be pretty unlikely. But I'm not so sure that even successful litigation would have made that big a difference anyway: it seems that the reason why Reuben was hit so hard is more about his shock over Bank's nastiness and betrayal than about the financial losses per se, so it called for a more radical remedy...

Why goes the Greco lock people in

• Why would the Greco lock the control room in an emergency? Putting aside that it accomplishes nothing, it's also kind of a hazard if there's a fire or a threat to both the servers AND the people.
  • It doesn't lock the control room in an emergency. It locks the control room when it detects a threat against itself (in this case, the magnetron). Presumably it's to ensure that nobody can tamper with it and get away, the minute you start tampering with it, you get locked inside and security notified.

Ocean's gang no longer fearing Benedict

• In Twelve, Terry Benedict scares them into returning the money they stole from him in Eleven plus interest just by revealing he knows where they are. How can they give away his share of the Bank heist and not fear the same retaliation they feared back then?
  • Well, let's put it this way: In "Eleven", Benedict lost something - a girlfriend and self-respect if not exactly money. Whereas in "Thirteen" he didn't lose anything. It's just that he did not gain - money, that is. But then in the end he gained, admittedly through no effort of his own, something probably even more valuable - fame and glory, to the allure of which he seems more than susceptible. (And, well, he probably really wanted to see Bank screwed!) What's more, he was able to see that his plans to double-cross the gang are futile more often than not. So I think that, on the balance, he might be willing to finally put the entire thing to a rest. Or at least that's what the gang might be reasonably counting on. Not that the "reasonably" qualifier can't be disproved by some future sequel, of course.
  • He was cheated out of 72 million dollars. Even if he gained everything else he said he wanted out of the deal plus the fame and glory that came with donating that money to charity, shouldn't Danny's crew be worried about him demanding them to get him other 72 mil plus interest? Wouldn't the newfound fame and glory keep people from suspecting him?
  • Well, he was cheated out of 72 million that had never been his to begin with, as opposed to losing his legally acquired money in the first instalment. All while trying to cheat them and get the diamonds that were never part of the deal. It might make a difference even for a man like Benedict - at least, one can't be blamed too strongly if they believe it does.
  • Benedict would have 3 options in this matter: First is to get his own money back. Not an option because that went to charity and would reveal him to be a monster. Even in the worst interpretation of him he's only ruthless in getting his money back when he's ripped off, not going that far. Second is to get the money from the team through his own connections. That's out because those are very visible and connected to him. Also because he has no proof he was cheated (because he wasn't) it would look as though he is engaging in strong-armed robbery. That's the most favorable interpretation without some digging as to why he's trying to get the money out of them. Third is getting the money from the team through the underworld. The few connections he has there would look at the situation and opt out. After all, Benedict tried to double-cross the team. Who's to say he won't try to double cross anyone else?