History PlayingWith / CanTArgueWithElves

*** Otherwise, the {{Keigo}} speaking [[{{Oni}} Senko]], [[MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch thought to be a brute due to the fact that he's an ogre from the east]], manages to give out a cutting yet calm and surprisingly insightful TheReasonYouSuckSpeech, surprising nearly everyone who thought him of a mindless brute moments prior.

-> Akira: Yeah, an' you can go fuck yerselves with those arrows too!

** Avaril is straight-up deluded, and is to elf-kind what the worst {{Eagle Land}}ers are to America. [[StopBeingStereotypical (Less bigoted elves find him deeply embarrassing.)]]

** Kate attempts to call out Avaril, but Avaril easily rebuts her points, disarms her in combat and, to add insult to injury, delivers a pointed lecture about how humanity's base impulses towards responding to challenges with violence is so much less effective than the way of peace the elves have developed.
** Kate calls out and defeats Avaril ... whereupon he seamlessly switches to browbeating everyone with elven ''moral'' superiority -- after all, only a crude simple human would attempt to resolve an intellectual debate, even one in which she was losing so badly, with brute combat. He wraps up by explaining that [[ILetYouWin he allowed her to win]] to spare her feelings and pointing out numerous flaws in her technique before admitting that with her subpar human reflexes there's really not much she can do to improve on them. The rest of the party sits by and nods in agreement.

** Avaril, like most elves, is vain, self-obsessed and believes in a highly exaggerated (and inaccurate) belief in the abilities and superiority of he and his fellow elves. He (and by extension his fellow elves) are actually very incompetent and flawed, but Kate and George refuse to comment more out of an awkward desire to avoid puncturing his fragile ego and starting a fight rather than sharing his beliefs.
** Elves are far and away the best species ... at gardening. Avaril can't help but lecture his somewhat botanically ignorant companions about how those are ''hydrangeas'', not hibiscus, and explain the proper way to maintain strawberry patches. Kate and George never comment because everyone ''but'' the elves realize that the topic isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.

** Some elves are implacably guilty of CulturalPosturing, others have an instinctive CulturalCringe, and a third camp recognises all the races' comparative strengths and weaknesses and wants them to co-operate, using their strengths to compensate for their weaknesses. The power of each viewpoint within elf society and the reactions from the elves' allies fluctuate throughout the story.

* '''Enforced''': Avaril and the elf society is constructed as a MarySuetopia reflecting the author's beliefs and ideal view of the world; as such, the author has all the non-{{Straw Character}}s bow down to the elf viewpoint because according to the author, the elves are entirely right and as such should naturally be agreed with.

* '''Reconstructed''': For all his obnoxious self-righteousness, Avaril is genuinely concerned about the plight of the other races, knowing that his own race did not become supremely awesome overnight. He's trying to impart wisdom brought from hard-won experience, and elven society has a kind of [[BrutalHonesty bluntness]] such that he would talk in the same manner to a member of his own kind if they were acting out of line. His allies may be aggravated with his delivery, but he brings up enough good points that they know he means well, even if it comes across as a YouAreACreditToYourRace style of patronizing.

** Elves tend to ramble on, but they are fair to all. Avaril will often include things in these monologues like "Now, the human general Leo once came up with a much better plan for the war than the elves did" and "Your style was better than elves for sure, but there are few things I would like to suggest" that show that the elves don't think they are the only ones who can be great.

** Elves just made FirstContact with races a little while ago. Avaril isn't prepared for the comparative BlueAndOrangeMorality of his human companions, so of course he thinks poorly of them compared to the only culture he's known for most of his life. Kate and George let it go because they know that Avaril [[UndyingLoyalty would die for them if need be]] and he doesn't ''actually'' think that humans are weak, just bizarre, and he'll eventually get over it when he gets more used to elven culture not being the only way to do things.

** Kate attempts to call out Avaril, but Avaril easily rebuts her points, disarms her in combat and, to add insult to injury, delivers a pointed lecture about how humanity's base impulses towards responding to challenges with violence is so less effective than the way of peace the elves have developed.
** Kate calls out and defeats Avaril ... at which point he seamlessly switches to browbeating everyone with elven ''moral'' superiority -- after all, only a crude simple human would attempt to resolve an intellectual debate, even one in which she was losing so badly, with brute combat. He wraps up by explaining that he allowed her to win in order to spare her feelings and pointing out numerous flaws in her technique before admitting that with her subpar human reflexes there's really not much she can do to improve on them. The rest of the party sits by and nods in agreement.

** Elves are far and away the best species ... at gardening. Avaril can't help but lecture his somewhat botanically ignorant companions about how those are ''hydrangeas'', not hibiscus, and the proper way to maintain strawberry patches. Kate and George never comment because everyone ''but'' the elves realizes that the topic really isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.
** George and Avaril debate the recent health care legislation.

* '''Played for Drama''': The humans do not argue with the elves because the elves act as an oppressive analogue to a fascist society, and have bombarded the humans with both so much propaganda about elf superiority and harsh punishments for those who speak up and resist that human society is fearful and lacking self-worth.

'''Basic Trope''': Elves or a similar 'superior' entity are depicted as being superior to humans in every way (culturally, morally, technologically, etc) and frequently vocalise this fact. The humans are consistently unable or unwilling to object to this.
* '''Straight''': Among the party of adventurers who form the protagonists is an elf warrior, Avaril. Avaril is much superior in combat and physical ability to his human allies, and frequently raises the fact that elves have a more 'evolved' social system and cultural mores than humans. Kate and George, Avaril's allies, never call him on this.

** Literally every single communication between elves and humans consists of the elves delivering a lengthy monologue on how elves are infinitely superior in every way to humans, while the humans just stand there and meekly listen.

** Elves have a tendency to ramble on, but they are fair to all. Avaril will often include things in these monologues like "Now, the human general Leo once came up with a much better plan for the war than the elves did" and "your style was better than elves for sure, but there are few things i would like to suggest" that show that the elves don't think they are the only ones who can be great.
** Avaril snarks a bit about those crazy humans and their love of fire and propensity to wear pants, but overall he acknowledges his companions' strengths and doesn't think that elven morality is superior to that of other races.

** Avaril is clearly presented as a bigoted, incompetent fool -- however, he has very powerful connections and can make things very difficult for Kate and George, meaning that they must hold their tongues during his self-righteous lectures even as they're constantly proving his limited viewpoint wrong.
** Elves are TheFairFolk, and project a magical glamor that makes arguing against their ways literally unthinkable for all entranced by it.
** Elves are the oldest race around, and ''most'' elves will admit the reason they're better than everybody is because they had been there, done that, and survived to wear the t-shirt out long ago...and everybody knows it. Either Kate and George know Avaril is normal for elves willing to go adventuring--and they do want to benefit from the lessons the elves learned--or are aware that, actually, Avaril is [[BlueAndOrangeMorality by elven standards]] treating them like fellow elves.
** Elves just made FirstContact with races a little while ago. Avaril isn't prepared for the comparative BlueAndOrangeMorality of his human companions, so of course he thinks poorly of them compared to the only culture he's known for most of his life. Kate and George let it go because they know that Avaril [[UndyingLoyalty would die for them if need be]] and he doesn't ''actually'' think that humans are weak, just bizarre, and he'll eventually get over it when he gets more used to elven culture not being the only way to do things.

** After another of Avaril's lectures, Kate essentially says "ScrewYouElves," calls him out on his arrogance and defeats him in combat, demonstrating that humans are superior in some ways to elves.
** Avaril claims that elves are superior... [[BlueAndOrangeMorality but his priorities and standards are very, very different from those common in humans]].
** Avaril is straight-up deluded, and is to elf-kind what the worst [[EagleLand Eagle Landers]] are to America. ([[StopBeingStereotypical Less bigoted elves find him deeply embarrassing]].)
* '''Double Subverted''':

** Kate calls out and defeats Avaril... at which point he seamlessly switches to browbeating everyone with elven ''moral'' superiority- after all, only a crude simple human would attempt to resolve an intellectual debate, even one in which she was losing so badly, with brute combat. He wraps up by explaining that he allowed her to win in order to spare her feelings and pointing out numerous flaws in her technique before admitting that with her sub-par human reflexes there's really not much she can do to improve on them. The rest of the party sits by and nods in agreement.
** Other elves are just more subtle in their arrogance.

** Elves are far and away the best species... at gardening. Avaril can't help but lecture his somewhat botanically-ignorant companions about how those are ''hydrangeas'' not hibiscus and the proper way to maintain strawberry patches. Kate and George never comment because everyone ''but'' the elves realizes that the topic really isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.
** George and Avaril debate the recent healthcare legislation.
* '''Zig Zagged'''
** Avaril is self-righteous and elitist; however, after he is called out on this by Kate, he is humbled and makes a genuine effort to reshape his view of the world. However, his years of conditioning are hard to break through, meaning that he will often move between a more humble approach and retaining his arrogant view of the world.
--->'''Avaril''': That was a Thunderbolt. See how useless you humans are, without magi... OWW!!!\\
'''Kate''': That was a cricket bat. See how useless Fae are when they underestimate humans?\\
'''Avaril''': Yeah...\\

'''Avaril''': Cast Arcane Barrier before monologing.
* '''Averted''': Avaril and his fellow elves are more or less equal to the other races in the world and act as such.
* '''Enforced''': Avaril and the elf society is being constructed as a MarySuetopia reflecting the author's beliefs and ideal view of the world; as such, the author has all the non-Strawman characters bow down to the elf viewpoint because according to the author, the elves are entirely right and as such should naturally be agreed with.
* '''Lampshaded''': "Ah, so we've reached the part of the evening where Avaril's going to lecture us about how worthless we are compared to him and the other elves."
* '''Invoked''': Avaril is explicitly included in the party to act as its moral yardstick by the elf high council.

** Kate is well aware of Avaril's monologing. In order to get the big bad to back down, she decides to get Avaril going while the big bad is listening, in order to set up an ambush by George.
** His allies end up using Avaril's sheer long-windedness and smug condescension bore a villain to death.

* '''Discussed''': "Wait... elves exist? I hope they don't think we're inferior or something."

** Elf society is hated and feared among 'lesser' races for its arrogance, self-righteousness and elitist viewpoints, but because of their tremendous powers and abilities, the other races prefer to live in quiet resentment rather than calling the elves out and risking retribution. However, when the elves ''do'' face a threat that they are unable to face alone, their habit of burning bridges comes back to bite them when none of their 'allies' are particularly willing to come to their aid: [[ScrewYouElves "If you're so superior, you can take care of this yourselves."]]

* '''Reconstructed''': For all the obnoxious self-righteousness of Avaril, Avaril is genuinely concerned about the plight of the other races, knowing that his own race did not become supremely awesome overnight. He's trying to impart wisdom brought from hard won experience, and elven society has a kind of bluntness such that he would talk in the exact same manner to a member of his own kind if they were acting out of line. His allies may be aggravated with his delivery, but he brings up enough good points that they know he means well, even if it comes across as a YouAreACreditToYourRace style of patronizing.
* '''Played For Laughs''':

** When elves walk, flowers grow at their feet. When they march to battle birds gather round cheering them. When they shoot their bows their bows ''sing'' instead of just twanging like a human bow. And when an elf dies in battle, all the ravens come and seeing it is an elf refrain from eating him and lovingly cover him with flowers.
* '''Played For Drama''': The humans do not argue with the elves because the elves act as an oppressive analogue to a fascist society, and have bombarded the humans with both so much propaganda about elf superiority and harsh punishments for those who speak up and resist that human society is fearful and lacking self-worth.
* '''Implied''': Elves appear to occupy the top rungs of society, but the story never expands on why this is so.

----
%% Optional items, added after Conversed, at your discretion:
%%

** Elf society is hated and feared among 'lesser' races for its arrogance, self-righteousness and elitist viewpoints, but because of their tremendous powers and abilities the other races tend to prefer to live in quiet resentment rather than calling the elves out and risking retribution. However, when the elves ''do'' face a threat that they are unable to face alone, their habit of burning bridges due to this self-righteousness comes back to bite them when none of their 'allies' are particularly willing to come to their aid because of it: "[[ScrewYouElves If you're so superior, you can take care of this yourselves.]]"

-->''Avaril'': "That was a Thunderbolt. See how useless you humans are, without magi... OWW!!!"
-->''Kate'': "That was a cricket bat. See how useless Fae are when they underestimate humans?"
-->''Avaril'': "Yeah..."
-->''Kate'': "So, what did you learn?"
-->''Avaril'': "Cast Arcane Barrier before monologing."

* '''Defied''': ScrewYouElves.

%%
%%* '''Implied''': ???

* '''Downplayed''': Elves have a tendency to ramble on, but they are fair to all. Avaril will often include things in these monologues like "Now, the human general Leo once came up with a much better plan for the war than the elves did" and "your style was better than elves for sure, but there are few things i would like to suggest" that show that the elves don't think they are the only ones who can be great.

** Elves are the oldest race around, and ''most'' elves will admit the reason they're better than everybody is because they had been there, done that, and survived to wear the t-shirt out long ago...and everybody knows it. Either Kate and George know Avaril is normal for elves willing to go adventuring--and they do want to benefit from the lessons the elves learned--or are aware that, actually, Avaril is [[BlueAndOrangeMorality by elven standards]] treating them like fellow elves.

* '''Enforced''': Avaril and the elf society is being constructed as a MarySuetopia reflecting the author's beliefs and ideal view of the world; as such, the author has the other character bow down to the elf viewpoint because it is the viewpoint that the author believes everyone should possess.

** Kate is well aware of Avaril's monologing. In order to get the big bad to back down, she decides to get Avaril going while the big bad is listening, in order to make the big bad agree with Avaril and give up his plans.

* '''Deconstructed''': Elf society is hated and feared among 'lesser' races for its arrogance, self-righteousness and elitist viewpoints, but because of their tremendous powers and abilities the other races tend to prefer to live in quiet resentment rather than calling the elves out and risking retribution. However, when the elves ''do'' face a threat that they are unable to face alone, their habit of burning bridges due to this self-righteousness comes back to bite them when none of their 'allies' are particularly willing to come to their aid because of it: "[[ScrewYouElves If you're so superior, you can take care of this yourselves.]]"

* '''Double Subverted''': Kate attempts to call out Avaril, but Avaril easily rebuts her points, disarms her in combat and, to add insult to injury, delivers a pointed lecture about how humanity's base impulses towards responding to challenges with violence is so less effective than the way of peace the elves have developed.

* '''Exaggerated''': Literally every single communication between elves and humans consists of the elves delivering a lengthy monologue on how elves are infinitely superior in every way to humans, while the humans just stand there and meekly listen.

%%* '''Implied''': ???
%%* '''Plotted A Good Waste''': ???

** When the elves or anothre species bring in unedited evidence that they are immeasurably superior to humanity beyond time and space, humans are literally incapable of arguing verbally or any other way, as their mere power prevents them from speaking however they wish and physically unable to oppose them.

** When the elves or anothe species bring in unedited evidence that they are immeasurably superior to humanity beyond time and space, humans are literally incapable of arguing verbally or any other way, as their mere power prevents them from speaking however they wish and physically unable to oppose them.

* '''Subverted''': After another of Avaril's lectures, Kate essentially says "ScrewYouElves," calls him out on his arrogance and defeats him in combat, demonstrating that humans are superior in some ways to elves.
** Avaril claims that elves are superior... [[BlueAndOrangeMorality but his priorities and standards are very, very different from those common in humans]].

** Avaril is straight-up deluded, and is to elf-kind what the worst [[EagleLand Eagle Landers]] are to America. ([[StopBeingStereotypical Less bigoted elves find him deeply embarrassing]].)

** Avaril is straight-up deluded, and is to elf-kind what the worst [[EagleLand Eagle Landers]] are to America. ([[StopBeingStereotypical Other elves consider him an embarrassment]].

* '''Averted''': Avaril and his fellow elves are more or less equal to the other races in the world and act as such.

* '''Exploited''': Kate is well aware of Avaril's monologing. In order to get the big bad to back down, she decides to get Avaril going while the big bad is listening, in order to make the big bad agree with Avaril and give up his plans.
** Alternatively, Avaril's sheer long-windedness and smug condescension bore the villain to death.

* '''Played For Laughs''': Avaril's self-righteous lectures are clearly transposed against clear demonstrations of his ineptitude and moral fallibility for HypocriticalHumor value.

* '''Downplayed''': Elves are around equal terms with humans, but there is plenty of argument when an elf is simply talking about how much better they are. Most people don't bother getting on elves if they're just talking about races as small talk, though.

* '''Exploited''': ???

* '''Downplayed''': ???

'''Basic Trope''': Elves or a similar 'superior' entity are depicted as being superior to humans in every way (culturally, morally, technologically, etc) and frequently vocalise this fact. The humans are consistently unable or unwilling to object to this.
* '''Straight''': Among the party of adventurers who form the protagonists is an elf warrior, Avaril. Avaril is much superior in combat and physical ability to his human allies, and frequently raises the fact that elves have a more 'evolved' social system and cultural mores than humans. Kate and George, Avaril's allies, never call him on this.
* '''Exaggerated''': Literally every single communication between elves and humans consists of the elves delivering a lengthy monologue on how elves are infinitely superior in every way to humans, while the humans just stand there and meekly listen.
* '''Justified''':

** Avaril is clearly presented as a bigoted, incompetent fool -- however, he has very powerful connections and can make things very difficult for Kate and George, meaning that they must hold their tongues during his self-righteous lectures even as they're constantly proving his limited viewpoint wrong.
** Elves are TheFairFolk, and project a magical glamor that makes arguing against their ways literally unthinkable for all entranced by it.
* '''Inverted''':

* '''Subverted''': After another of Avaril's lectures, Kate essentially says "ScrewYouElves," calls him out on his arrogance and defeats him in combat, demonstrating that humans are superior in some ways to elves.
* '''Double Subverted''': Kate attempts to call out Avaril, but Avaril easily rebuts her points, disarms her in combat and, to add insult to injury, delivers a pointed lecture about how humanity's base impulses towards responding to challenges with violence is so less effective than the way of peace the elves have developed.
* '''Parodied''':

* '''Deconstructed''': Elf society is hated and feared among 'lesser' races for its arrogance, self-righteousness and elitist viewpoints, but because of their tremendous powers and abilities the other races tend to prefer to live in quiet resentment rather than calling the elves out and risking retribution. However, when the elves ''do'' face a threat that they are unable to face alone, their habit of burning bridges due to this self-righteousness comes back to bite them when none of their 'allies' are particularly willing to come to their aid because of it: "[[ScrewYouElves If you're so superior, you can take care of this yourselves.]]"
* '''Reconstructed''': For all the obnoxious self-righteousness of Avaril, Avaril is genuinely concerned about the plight of the other races, knowing that his own race did not become supremely awesome overnight. He's trying to impart wisdom brought from hard won experience, and elven society has a kind of bluntness such that he would talk in the exact same manner to a member of his own kind if they were acting out of line. His allies may be aggravated with his delivery, but he brings up enough good points that they know he means well, even if it comes across as a YouAreACreditToYourRace style of patronizing.
* '''Zig Zagged'''

* '''Averted''': Avaril and his fellow elves are more or less equal to the other races in the world and act as such.
* '''Enforced''': Avaril and the elf society is being constructed as a MarySuetopia reflecting the author's beliefs and ideal view of the world; as such, the author has the other character bow down to the elf viewpoint because it is the viewpoint that the author believes everyone should possess.
* '''Lampshaded''': "Ah, so we've reached the part of the evening where Avaril's going to lecture us about how worthless we are compared to him and the other elves."
* '''Invoked''': Avaril is explicitly included in the party to act as its moral yardstick by the elf high council.
* '''Defied''': ScrewYouElves.
* '''Discussed''': "Wait... elves exist? I hope they don't think we're inferior or something."
* '''Conversed''': "Okay, so in every fantasy novel there's always a self-righteous elf lecturing the other characters about how elves are so much better than they are; elves are [[OurElvesAreDifferent usually self-righteous]], I get that, but you'd think the other characters would at least tell him to shut up every once in a while."
* '''Played For Laughs''': Avaril's self-righteous lectures are clearly transposed against clear demonstrations of his ineptitude and moral fallibility for HypocriticalHumor value.
* '''Played For Drama''': The humans do not argue with the elves because the elves act as an oppressive analogue to a fascist society, and have bombarded the humans with both so much propaganda about elf superiority and harsh punishments for those who speak up and resist that human society is fearful and lacking self-worth.

%%* '''Plotted A Good Waste''': ???
%%
%%

** Avaril has a point; [[HumansAreBastards Humans are or have been bastards]] in this situation and are to blame for the current crisis, while elf society devotes itself to peace.

* '''Justified''': Avaril has a point; [[HumansAreBastards Humans are or have been bastards]] in this situation and are to blame for the current crisis, while elf society devotes itself to peace.

* '''Inverted''': Avaril is a weak fighter, generally inferior to his human colleagues, and Kate and George spend most of their time telling him how useless he is. Avaril rarely responds.

* '''Parodied''': Avaril, like most elves, is vain, self-obsessed and believes in a highly exaggerated (and inaccurate) belief in the abilities and superiority of he and his fellow elves. He (and by extension his fellow elves) are actually very incompetent and flawed, but Kate and George refuse to comment more out of an awkward desire to avoid puncturing his fragile ego and starting a fight rather than sharing his beliefs.

* '''Zig Zagged''': Avaril is self-righteous and elitist; however, after he is called out on this by Kate, he is humbled and makes a genuine effort to reshape his view of the world. However, his years of conditioning are hard to break through, meaning that he will often move between a more humble approach and retaining his arrogant view of the world.
**

-->''Kate'': "That was a cricket bat. See how useless Fae are when they underesimate humans?"

-->''Avaril'': "Cast Arcane Barrier before monolouging."