This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
From Rule Of Cool Discussion:
Ununnilium:
(Besides, those pesky laws are just part of the physics of the Matrix that's completely null once you step back into the "real world"!)
Took this out because a.) it pulls focus from the point of the entry and generally clutters things up, and b.) whaaaa? I don't remember anything from the movie that said the "real world" doesn't follow the laws of thermodynamics.
Morgan Wick: Well, I put it in because it was funny. I never saw the Matrix, but I do know that the laws of physics and time at least seemed to be different, so it seemed to me that they had a built-in nigh-universal A Wizard Did It. In other words, no, the movie might not have said that the "real world" doesn't follow the laws of thermodynamics, but it could have, and fanon could hold it true if it wanted to.
Ununnilium: Ohhhhh, I see. By "real world" you meant "world in the Matrix" and not "post-apolcalyptic computer-ruled real world". I was confused.
Binaroid: Well, some people did think they were in for the "Blue Matrix" Dream Within a Dream plot twist after Neo forced the robots to stop in the real world at the end of The Matrix Reloaded.
Seth: Remember most of the Real world discrepancies in the matrix can be hadwaved by all the Black Box technology they use.
Kendra Kirai: Also the fact the Wachowski brothers ran out of biblical references after the first movie.
Seth: I'm glad for it, Jesus throw in a few bible Shout-Out's and everyone starts seeing meaning where there is none. Kind of a lame attempt to add class to your work when you think about it.
Andyzero: Sounds like a trope.
Kendra Kirai: What, like... Imagined Depth? Its Better When Youre Stoned? Drunken Stoner Meaningful? What Do You Mean, It's Not Symbolic??
Seth: What Do You Mean, It's Not Symbolic? rocks, please let me make this one :D
Tabby: Love it.
Ununnilium: See, this is a good name. It's memetic, which those other names weren't. ``v
Seth: Why do i think that was aimed at me? Eh.
Tulling: Again that clumsy term "Judeo-Christian". Replaced with "Abrahamic". "..Japanese culture isn't familiar with most of it." is a ridiculous expression, something abstract like "culture" cannot be familiar with anything. It makes more sense to refer to the audience in this case.
Looney Toons: Give it up, Tulling. No matter how much you insist on your favorite neologism, it will get changed back to the commonly-used term you despise, by any number of people here, as often as necessary. Being snarky in the discussions doesn't help your case, either.
Tulling: "Neologism"? I refer you to the following for an explanation of the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic
, and would also like to remark that entering the term in google returns "ca. 669 000" hits.
Looney Toons: Whatever. The point is, every other user editing those passages besides you prefers "Judeo-Christian". It says what we want it to say, and when you change it, we're just going to change it back. What percentage is in it for you to get into a game of volley-edit where your side is outnumbered from the start? Just let it go, satisfy yourself that in your heart of hearts that you know that you're right and that we're all ignorant heathen, and for gods' sake relax. And if you really need to be the final authority on every nitpicky detail, there's always Wikipedia.
Seth: This is a general gripe i have with the information age, words don't die. Part of language development is that words change meaning, popular words take on new meaning, some words are completely forgotten or replaced. Can has mostly replaced May where 2 words mean the same thing one is usually pushed out in favour of the other. But nowadays it just doesn't happen. [Gripe Over]
On a note actually related to the discussion, isn't this wiki more concerned with accessibility than being on the dot perfectly correct. Its supposed to be an enjoyable read that most people will understand. Not something that makes you pull out a dictionary, ive never heard of the term Abrahamic and neither has my spell checker - but ive heard Judo-Christian a lot. (Also Judo Christian pulls 950'000" hits)
Red Shoe: I'm all for accessibility, but whenever you decide you're going to be outright wrong in the name of "accessibility", you lose my support. "Judo-Christian" is Just Plain Wrong. The term you're looking for is "Judeo-Christian", which pulls 1.1 million hits on Google. The "Abrahamic religions" is a slightly different group -- the terms aren't identical. The Abrahamic religions include Islam, as well as a few less-well-known-to-westerners faiths such as Mandaeism and Baha'i.
Seth: I didn't write the NGE example, my only point is in the grand scale of things does it matter. Also were there any non Jewish/Christian religious images in NGE that were added in line with the trope? (That is not including eastern religions that the audience would be familiar with) I haven't seen the series but since those are the two most accessible western religions it is quite possible that Judeo-Christian would be the correct term.
YYZ: Judeo-Christian is actually, in this case, a far more accurate term. None of the other Abrahamic religions are referred to on the show, neither Islam nor any of the more obscure ones; hell, even the references to Shinto, Zen and Buddhism all add up to less than five. Whereas the entire series is SATURATED with Jewish, Kabbalistic and Christian imagery, names, and mythological concepts.
Seth: In which case it is probably one of the rare times that it is a correct usage.
Morgan Wick: "Judo-Christian." So, does that mean they are Christians who make Judo part of the faith?
Looney Toons: Excised the following:
because strictly speaking, it's not quite true. There is a small but noticeable Christian minority in Japan, but it's big enough that various characters can be identified as such. (Kasumi in Ranma 1/2 has been known to wear a cross, for instance, and the live action Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon has one episode that spends much of its time in a Catholic church in Tokyo.) It used to be bigger, but Japanese Christians suffered a number of pogroms before the middle 20th century. And believe it or not, there is a tiny yet stable population of Japanese Jews dating back at least to the 16th century, mostly settled in Tokyo and Kobe. (And that's ignoring the fringish speculation that the Japanese are somehow related to one of the Lost Tribes of Israel.)
That a character wears a cross is not necessarily intended to signal that they are christian, in most cases it is probably just decoration.
Ununnilium: You know what I'd like to see? An anime whose Multinational Team is made up of one of each nation that's rumored to be one of the Lost Tribes of Israel.
BT The P: I think that'd fall under Loads And Loads Of Characters. (maybe, lots of folks make the claim).
Pepinson: One little bone to pick with The Matrix -- some of this stuff really is symbolic. Take a look at the Merovingian, for example--if you take a good, hard look at the film, you'll see a ton of little hints that add up to imply that he used to be the One in a previous version of the Matrix. Of course, Dan Brown made the whole exercise pointless when he dragged that bit of mythos back into popular culture a year later, but in '02 this was a fairly obscure reference.
Seth: We're not saying it isn't there is some genuine symbolism. But there is also a lot of stuff that is thrown in for the sake of it.
Tonkarz: How does this trope relate to Crystal Dragon Jesus? I guess it's because this one is faux attempts at deeper meaning and the other is just appropriating real world symbols for flavouring of an in world religion.
Seth: I dont think it does relate to CDJ. That is a trope about a fictional stand in for a real world religion. This is a trope about random symbolism used to up the class factor of your program/film.
Morgan Wick: The similarity between [[www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/avatar.jpg this scene]] from Avatar The Last Airbender and [[www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/pieta.jpg this sculpture of Christ and Mary]] is too conspicuous to go unnoticed.
I don't think Avatar is alone... references to that sculpture, and in particular to the cover of Crisis On Infinite Earths that referenced that sculpture, just in comic books is almost a trope in itself.
Ununnilium: Ooooh. That can go in Popcultural Osmosis.
Seth: I would argue there are enough examples to make Pieta Shot a trope of itself.
Schol-R-LEA: Now I wish I'd read this first before editing the page... I definitely agree with Seth, this is a trope by itself, at least in comics. I know I've seen live-action film versions of the trope, but can't think of any... can any one else come up with some?
For that matter, perhaps the 'crucifixion shot' should be a trope as well. This is a classic Splitter debate, tho'.
Speaking of which, would a 'Kent State shot' (a woman kneeling and crying in front of a victim lying on the ground in the midst of a crisis - can someone find a better name?) also be a trope? It's clearly different from the Pieta Shot - it lacks the religious aspect, and has very different implications (random violence as opposed to Heroic Sacrifice) - but I don't know if it's common enough to be worth a page for itself.
Oh, it just occurred to me that another name for this trope might be 'tinsel symbolism'. Rather too late to make that suggestion, however.
Seth: This name is a franchise now though (See). and it works so there is no real need to change it. I think the crucifixion thing can stay under this trope since it's used as direct symboloisim. But as mentioned above the Pieta shot is more Popcultural Osmosis
Paul A: I'm taking this one out
- Carnivale included tons of allusions to and imagery from Freemasonry and the Knights Templar that inspired much debate but ultimately proved meaningless (much like the show).
because I say there's a difference between "ultimately proved meaningless" and "got cancelled before it got around to explaining what it meant".
Tanto: What the hell is wrong with the bar at the bottom? I thought someone just didn't understand the formatting, but it appears to be placed correctly. Is anyone else just getting text down there?
Seth: It was a simple markup problem someone deleted one of the > that closed the brackets.
Andyroid: Does the symbolism have to be religious for this trope to apply? 'Cause I know for a fact FLCL is loaded with seemingly gratuitous sexual symbolism.
Lale: Do you mean it looks sexual symbolism but isn't? Cause that would be Innocent Innuendo. If you mean full of sexual symbolism but with no reason, that sounds like Fanservice.
Andyroid: No, it's definitely sexual, so it wouldn't fall under Innocent Innuendo. And by "sexual symbolism" I mainly mean "phalluses out the wazoo" (all the big guns in episode 5, and especially the horns coming out of Naota's head), so it's not exactly Fanservice. Perhaps it would fall under Does This Remind You of Anything??
Sci Vo: Oops, when I was a newbie, I didn't realize that this was an index -- or how indexes work, for that matter. I'll put the indexed ones back in bullet points.
Dr Dedman: Whoever put in the bit about bioshock. "Rapture of the deep" is a distinctly different condition from decompresion sickness. They both occur due to pressure and involve nitrogen, but they are entirely different conditions (rapture takes effect imediately on reaching depth, the bends can't happen until accent).
Killah Mate: Same question as Andyroid: does the symbolism have to be religious for this trope to apply? I was thinking of the 'eclipse' events and references in Heroes, which is a powerful image that, by the writers' own admission, doesn't really mean anything and was put there to 'look cool'.
Mary: Actually, contrary to what was said after the quote near the top, Ezekiel 25:17 is, in fact, the bit at the end about "you will know my name is The Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee." I don't know where the rest of that quote is from (it's not in Ezekiel 25, at least), but it doesn't sound anything like the 23rd Psalm.
Gentlemens Dame 883: Actually, the bit about "shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness" is reminiscent of the original Psalm 23:4, which starts (in the NIV) with "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death...." The mention of "brother's keeper" can also be seen to have its roots in Cain's use of it in Genesis 4:9.
- Jordan: A question for anyone whose read the Wheel Of Time series- being Jewish I would associate the name Ishmael with Islam and was wondering, if as I fear, this anti-christ character is a Take That! towards Muslims like that in C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle.
Charred Knight:Only Ishamael's name has anything to do with Ishmael, he is simply the Evil Counterpart to Rand. Most of the Forsaken including Ishamael are based off of Nazi Germany. For example The Dark One wants the Forsaken to fight amongst themselves so only the strong may survive. Nazi Germany was known for how poorly run it was. So unless you don't want to see a Take That! of Nazi Germany it should be okay for you to read.
Ninjacrat: This troper would like to note the the previous troper is really, really reaching in the Nazi comparison (...and in the 'of course the Nazi fought each other so the strong would survive' thing...). The Forsaken are just your stock supervillain characters: Mad Scientist, Evil Vizier, Dragon Lady, Blood Knight, et al.
Citizen: Don't Godwin my WoT, Charred. >_>;; Anyway, you can read up on all the mythological references and whatnot at the WOTFAQ.
Fast Eddie: Too long:
