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Aug 1st 2015 at 9:49:02 PM •••

I removed the Informed Wrongness post because of incorrect information and my not being able to find a way to right it correctly. It has been left in as a comment but I figured it best to explain my problems and see if someone else could fix it. The first issue is it brings up Celica dying in six months, but that ignores the actual argument, that even so is it okay to force her to spend those six months slowly having her soul drained away. The second is that it compresses all the information and ignores the progression of the plot. Kokonoe's argument is when the plan was to use the Lynchpin against the Imperator. Then they discovered the work-around and went to use it (and whether or not that is poorly foreshadowed is debatable since the connection between Rettenjou and the Lynchpin has been know since CSEX). It’s only after they are already past the Celica debate that Izanami’s plan starts killing everyone, at which point the issue is using the Lynchpin despite Relius getting the way. The nuke option is only discussed in comparison to releasing Celica’s limiter, which would slow down the seither but kill her in 10 minutes. That question is more debatable for Informed Wrongness (and eventually Ragna caves and lets her temporarily release the limiter). Aside from the 30 seconds between Ragna refusing to sacrifice Celica and Rachel giving them the hint about Rettenjou (and this is at a time when there is no immediate threat) there is no point where the protagonists are saying “hopefully we’ll thing of something” since they have a plan, the trouble was implementing it. Kokonoe might be right about wanting to use Celica in the situations, but the information is wrong and I can’t figure out a way to make the example work with my bias.

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Aug 5th 2015 at 6:41:13 AM •••

Which story chapter brings the whole thing about "Kokonoe's gonna make Celica sacrificing herself" again?

At least in that entry, it is saying that sacrificing Celica is seen as wrong by other people in-game despite that they seemingly have no other options (and I heard Celica also gave her consent as well). Then Rachel comes in and says there's another way that nobody else thought of.

(P.s it isn't just the Rettenjo, but also Tenjo's soul inside it that activates the lynchpin, making him the sacrifice in Celica's place. Pretty sure the info about "Tenjo's soul can be used too" is hardly foreshadowed in this case.)

So if you wanna make an entry for Informed Wrongness, can you write it here?

Aug 5th 2015 at 10:25:19 AM •••

Its in the first chapter of the True Ending, I believe 17 right after Ragna returns from the boundary.

I think he's arguing against having Informed Wrongness because while the characters treat Kokonoe as wrong for wanting to sacrifice Celica, it doesn't really paint them as any morally superior. And as he said, Ragna eventually gives in when Bang is held off by Relius.

Tenjo's soul being in Rettenjou wasn't foreshadowed, but Rettenjou itself being connected to the Lynchpin was a thing since Bang's Continuum Shift story mode I recall.

Aug 7th 2015 at 5:58:21 PM •••

I don't think Informed Wrongness necessarily needs to be removed, just reworked. The original example condenses the entire True Ending into one argument. It treats Celica being needed to power the Lynchpin, the heroes not being sure what to do about the Lynchpin, the overflowing seithr killing everyone, and Kokonoe's nuclear option as simultaneous events, which is false. The events happen in that order, with stuff in between, staring from Chapter 17 onwards. For the Lynchpin, I'm fairly certain the first time it's mentioned is Platinum's story in CSEX (Relius muses about it when he sees Rettenjou and says they're connected), Bang's story just mentions the Rettenjou's power to sever connections to the Boundary.

Additionally, I might be wrong about it but the way I read the trope, it applies to when the author tells us a character is wrong. I'm not sure this applies since the characters have a lengthy debate about it and both sides have valid opinions. This seems like an example of Debate and Switch to me (the argument has two sides supported well but a third option is found to end the debate) and I will add that to the main page, but as for the specific idea of Kokonoe being wrong, I don't think I can write it well.

If it has to be kept the example should discuss something along the lines of Kokonoe being considered wrong for her Well-Intentioned Extremist tendencies, despite Terumi and Relius being such a big threat that they don't have the luxury of trying to search for a perfect outcome. If the specifics of the Lynchpin are discussed, I am not sure how to explain it without getting bogged down in all the details.

Edited by Ogiga99
Aug 9th 2015 at 9:43:33 PM •••

If there really isn't any Informed Wrongness about anything then we don't need it.

I support the Debate and Switch one.

FYI: Informed Wrongness is when a character's argument is painted as wrong when there's nothing to disprove it. For our case, however, the issue seems to be about incorrect writing of the actual facts, so... yeah.

Oct 26th 2013 at 5:13:06 AM •••

Okay so with new story spoilers let out should we add Bullet and Azzrael under They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character?

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