[006]
Manawyddan
Current Version
Changed line(s) 4 from:
n
*** \'\'I wasn\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\'t a Jerkass. It\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\'s even a prerequisite I\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \
to:
*** \\\'\\\'I wasn\\\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\\\'t a Jerkass. It\\\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\\\'s even a prerequisite I\\\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \\\"Juliette, or the prosperity of vice\\\" was published in 1801. His problems are of the same nature than the ones Flaubert had with MoralGuardians because of Madame Bovary. MoralGuardian applied here is simply more precise and less of an \\\'\\\'ad hominem\\\'\\\' argument.
*** \\\'\\\'Napoleon appears much more as a Jerkass in his attitude with Thomas Alexandre Dumas, towards whom he pettily acted out of personal jealousy and conflict.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Of course, Sade\\\'s arrestation and internment were arbitrary and autocratical and must be mentioned.\\\'\\\'
----
* Robespierre did play a role in the ousting of the Girondins,
*** \\\'\\\'That\\\'s right. I made a confusion with his attitude at the 10th August 1792. Sorrry for that.\\\'\\\'
----
* I got a large part of my info on the Vendée from Jean-Clément Martin: Blancs et Bleus dans la Vendée dechiréel (Gallimard 1987). Here he said that at close to (\\\"Près de\\\") 4000 persons were drowned in the noyades and that in total 10,000 \\\"disappeared\\\" (\\\"10 000 sans doute en totale disparaissent pendant les quelques mois que Carrier passe à Nantes\\\"). So I thought it fair to put in \\\"at least 4000\\\".
**** \\\'\\\'In fact, \\\"Près de 4000\\\" rather means \\\"almost 4000\\\". Guess it\\\'s a translation problem.\\\'\\\'
----
* One should perhaps point out that the Vendée as such did not exist before the revolution (the Department is what was in 1789 the western part of the Poitou), and when people talk about the rising of the Vendée they usually mean the \\\"white\\\" central part of the Department, not the edges, which were mostly \\\"blue\\\" (republican).
*** \\\'\\\'I agree, these are elements which should be implemented. Geographical elements always help. If I recall correctly, the dividing line between white and blue Vendee was also drawn along the way the peasants communities were organized (dispersed or concentrated communities). But it\\\'s a bit old in my mind, I admit. Besides, Vendee is catch-all term as the troubles affected Vendée, Maine-et-Loire, Loire-Atlantique and Deux-Sèvres\\\'\\\'
----
* Goethe\\\'s quote about Valmy may be a candidate for \\\"Beam me up, Scotty!\\\"
*** \\\'\\\'agreed\\\'\\\'
----
* One thing I do have to ask, a while ago I made a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder tab for Joseph Fouche (compared to him, Talleyrand is Undying Loyalty), who from what I gather is something of a scumbag (as per Stefan Zweig and many others). I think some other editor removed it by mistake. Any reason why I shouldn\\\'t mention his bloody backstabbing rise to power or the fact that he got away with it scott-free? Because there\\\'s no other way to mention him.
*** \\\'\\\'I am currently reading the most recent biography of Fouché by Emmanuel de Waresquiel who while he dislikes Fouché, debunks some of his black legend. I\\\'d say Backstabbing Disorder is true but doesn\\\'t reflect the totality of the character. Some say he backstabbed the Church, but he wasn\\\'t a priest to begin with. He was a war criminal at Lyon for sure. He backstabbed Robespierre (even if he had asked to marry his sister Charlotte before the Revolution) and Barras, that\\\'s true. After that, he had conflictual relationships with Napoleon and was much less skillful than Talleyrand in keeping his ministry no matter what. He disagreed with Napoleon about the Saint-Nicaise affair. Napoleon wanted it to be Jacobins and banned the few remaining ones; Fouché let it happened although he immediately saw it was a royalist plot and successfully arrested the true culprits. Napoleon sacked him because he dared to disagree with him, and be right, to boot ! Fouché went back-and-forth between his police ministry and lucrative offices, and tried to backstab Napoleon (sometimes with the help of Talleyrand) several times.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'In the end, he didn\\\'t got away scott-free. He was a minister for Louis XVIII for only 3 months before [[ReassignedToAntarctica he was sent as ambassador in Saxe, which was a disguised exile]], because the ultras hated him for being a former terrorist (i.e implementer of the Reign of Terror) and regicide. Once there, the law against regicides was voted and he lost all of his offices and functions. He spent the rest of his life in exile in Austria, monitored by Metternich and died in 1820, eighteen years before Talleyrand. All in all, he was less lucky than Talleyrand.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'On the other hand, Fouché kept his attachment to republicanism and jacobinism, and made sure that former members of the Convention got state pensions to help them make a living and always tried to soften the measures taken against the leftist opposition. He also stayed loyal to most of the friends he made before the Revolution and his fellow teachers from the Oratoire (the ones he personaly knew).\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'The most surprising thing about the character may be his relationship of mutual respect with Wellington.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Napoleon appears much more as a Jerkass in his attitude with Thomas Alexandre Dumas, towards whom he pettily acted out of personal jealousy and conflict.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Of course, Sade\\\'s arrestation and internment were arbitrary and autocratical and must be mentioned.\\\'\\\'
----
* Robespierre did play a role in the ousting of the Girondins,
*** \\\'\\\'That\\\'s right. I made a confusion with his attitude at the 10th August 1792. Sorrry for that.\\\'\\\'
----
* I got a large part of my info on the Vendée from Jean-Clément Martin: Blancs et Bleus dans la Vendée dechiréel (Gallimard 1987). Here he said that at close to (\\\"Près de\\\") 4000 persons were drowned in the noyades and that in total 10,000 \\\"disappeared\\\" (\\\"10 000 sans doute en totale disparaissent pendant les quelques mois que Carrier passe à Nantes\\\"). So I thought it fair to put in \\\"at least 4000\\\".
**** \\\'\\\'In fact, \\\"Près de 4000\\\" rather means \\\"almost 4000\\\". Guess it\\\'s a translation problem.\\\'\\\'
----
* One should perhaps point out that the Vendée as such did not exist before the revolution (the Department is what was in 1789 the western part of the Poitou), and when people talk about the rising of the Vendée they usually mean the \\\"white\\\" central part of the Department, not the edges, which were mostly \\\"blue\\\" (republican).
*** \\\'\\\'I agree, these are elements which should be implemented. Geographical elements always help. If I recall correctly, the dividing line between white and blue Vendee was also drawn along the way the peasants communities were organized (dispersed or concentrated communities). But it\\\'s a bit old in my mind, I admit. Besides, Vendee is catch-all term as the troubles affected Vendée, Maine-et-Loire, Loire-Atlantique and Deux-Sèvres\\\'\\\'
----
* Goethe\\\'s quote about Valmy may be a candidate for \\\"Beam me up, Scotty!\\\"
*** \\\'\\\'agreed\\\'\\\'
----
* One thing I do have to ask, a while ago I made a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder tab for Joseph Fouche (compared to him, Talleyrand is Undying Loyalty), who from what I gather is something of a scumbag (as per Stefan Zweig and many others). I think some other editor removed it by mistake. Any reason why I shouldn\\\'t mention his bloody backstabbing rise to power or the fact that he got away with it scott-free? Because there\\\'s no other way to mention him.
*** \\\'\\\'I am currently reading the most recent biography of Fouché by Emmanuel de Waresquiel who while he dislikes Fouché, debunks some of his black legend. I\\\'d say Backstabbing Disorder is true but doesn\\\'t reflect the totality of the character. Some say he backstabbed the Church, but he wasn\\\'t a priest to begin with. He was a war criminal at Lyon for sure. He backstabbed Robespierre (even if he had asked to marry his sister Charlotte before the Revolution) and Barras, that\\\'s true. After that, he had conflictual relationships with Napoleon and was much less skillful than Talleyrand in keeping his ministry no matter what. He disagreed with Napoleon about the Saint-Nicaise affair. Napoleon wanted it to be Jacobins and banned the few remaining ones; Fouché let it happened although he immediately saw it was a royalist plot and successfully arrested the true culprits. Napoleon sacked him because he dared to disagree with him, and be right, to boot ! Fouché went back-and-forth between his police ministry and lucrative offices, and tried to backstab Napoleon (sometimes with the help of Talleyrand) several times.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'In the end, he didn\\\'t got away scott-free. He was a minister for Louis XVIII for only 3 months before [[ReassignedToAntarctica he was sent as ambassador in Saxe, which was a disguised exile]], because the ultras hated him for being a former terrorist (i.e implementer of the Reign of Terror) and regicide. Once there, the law against regicides was voted and he lost all of his offices and functions. He spent the rest of his life in exile in Austria, monitored by Metternich and died in 1820, eighteen years before Talleyrand. All in all, he was less lucky than Talleyrand.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'On the other hand, Fouché kept his attachment to republicanism and jacobinism, and made sure that former members of the Convention got state pensions to help them make a living and always tried to soften the measures taken against the leftist opposition. He also stayed loyal to most of the friends he made before the Revolution and his fellow teachers from the Oratoire (the ones he personaly knew).\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'The most surprising thing about the character may be his relationship of mutual respect with Wellington.\\\'\\\'
Changed line(s) 4 from:
n
*** \'\'I wasn\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\'t a Jerkass. It\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\'s even a prerequisite I\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \
to:
*** \\\'\\\'I wasn\\\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\\\'t a Jerkass. It\\\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\\\'s even a prerequisite I\\\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \\\"Juliette, or the prosperity of vice\\\" was published in 1801. His problems are of the same nature than the ones Flaubert had with MoralGuardians because of Madame Bovary. MoralGuardian applied here is simply more precise and less of an \\\'\\\'ad hominem\\\'\\\' argument.
*** \\\'\\\'Napoleon appears much more as a Jerkass in his attitude with Thomas Alexandre Dumas, towards whom he pettily acted out of personal jealousy and conflict.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Of course, Sade\\\'s arrestation and internment were arbitrary and autocratical and must be mentioned.\\\'\\\'
----
* Robespierre did play a role in the ousting of the Girondins,
*** \\\'\\\'That\\\'s right. I made a confusion with his attitude at the 10th August 1792. Sorrry for that.\\\'\\\'
----
* I got a large part of my info on the Vendée from Jean-Clément Martin: Blancs et Bleus dans la Vendée dechiréel (Gallimard 1987). Here he said that at close to (\\\"Près de\\\") 4000 persons were drowned in the noyades and that in total 10,000 \\\"disappeared\\\" (\\\"10 000 sans doute en totale disparaissent pendant les quelques mois que Carrier passe à Nantes\\\"). So I thought it fair to put in \\\"at least 4000\\\".
**** \\\'\\\'In fact, \\\"Près de 4000\\\" rather means \\\"almost 4000\\\". Guess it\\\'s a translation problem.\\\'\\\'
----
* One should perhaps point out that the Vendée as such did not exist before the revolution (the Department is what was in 1789 the western part of the Poitou), and when people talk about the rising of the Vendée they usually mean the \\\"white\\\" central part of the Department, not the edges, which were mostly \\\"blue\\\" (republican).
*** \\\'\\\'I agree, these are elements which should be implemented. Geographical elements always help. If I recall correctly, the dividing line between white and blue Vendee was also drawn along the way the peasants communities were organized (dispersed or concentrated communities). But it\\\'s a bit old in my mind, I admit. Besides, Vendee is catch-all term as the troubles affected Vendée, Maine-et-Loire, Loire-Atlantique and Deux-Sèvres\\\'\\\'
----
* Goethe\\\'s quote about Valmy may be a candidate for \\\"Beam me up, Scotty!\\\"
*** \\\'\\\'agreed\\\'\\\'
----
* One thing I do have to ask, a while ago I made a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder tab for Joseph Fouche (compared to him, Talleyrand is Undying Loyalty), who from what I gather is something of a scumbag (as per Stefan Zweig and many others). I think some other editor removed it by mistake. Any reason why I shouldn\\\'t mention his bloody backstabbing rise to power or the fact that he got away with it scott-free? Because there\\\'s no other way to mention him.
*** \\\'\\\'I am currently reading the most recent biography of Fouché by Emmanuel de Waresquiel who while he dislikes Fouché, debunks some of his black legend. I\\\'d say Backstabbing Disorder is true but doesn\\\'t reflect the totality of the character. Some say he backstabbed the Church, but he wasn\\\'t a priest to begin with. He was a war criminal at Lyon for sure. He backstabbed Robespierre (even if he had asked to marry his sister Charlotte before the Revolution) and Barras, that\\\'s true. After that, he had conflictual relationships with Napoleon and was much less skillful than Talleyrand in keeping his ministry no matter what. He disagreed with Napoleon about the Saint-Nicaise affair. Napoleon wanted it to be Jacobins and banned the few remaining ones; Fouché let it happened although he immediately saw it was a royalist plot and successfully arrested the true culprits. Napoleon sacked him because he dared to disagree with him, and be right, to boot ! Fouché went back-and-forth between his police ministry and lucrative offices, and tried to backstab Napoleon (sometimes with the help of Talleyrand) several times.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'In the end, he didn\\\'t got away scott-free. He was a minister for Louis XVIII for only 3 months before [[ReassignedToAntarctica he was sent as ambassador in Saxe, which was a disguised exile]], because the ultras hated him for being a former terrorist (i.e implementer of the Reign of Terror) and regicide. Once there, the law against regicides was voted and he lost all of his offices and functions. He spent the rest of his life in exile in Austria, monitored by Metternich and in 1820, eighteen years before Talleyrand. All in all, he was less lucky than Talleyrand.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'On the other hand, Fouché kept his attachment to republicanism and jacobinism, and made sure that former members of the Convention got state pensions to help them make a living and always tried to soften the measures taken against the leftist opposition. He also stayed loyal to most of the friends he made before the Revolution and his fellow teachers from the Oratoire (the ones he personaly knew).\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'The most surprising thing about the character may be his relationship of mutual respect with Wellington.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Napoleon appears much more as a Jerkass in his attitude with Thomas Alexandre Dumas, towards whom he pettily acted out of personal jealousy and conflict.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Of course, Sade\\\'s arrestation and internment were arbitrary and autocratical and must be mentioned.\\\'\\\'
----
* Robespierre did play a role in the ousting of the Girondins,
*** \\\'\\\'That\\\'s right. I made a confusion with his attitude at the 10th August 1792. Sorrry for that.\\\'\\\'
----
* I got a large part of my info on the Vendée from Jean-Clément Martin: Blancs et Bleus dans la Vendée dechiréel (Gallimard 1987). Here he said that at close to (\\\"Près de\\\") 4000 persons were drowned in the noyades and that in total 10,000 \\\"disappeared\\\" (\\\"10 000 sans doute en totale disparaissent pendant les quelques mois que Carrier passe à Nantes\\\"). So I thought it fair to put in \\\"at least 4000\\\".
**** \\\'\\\'In fact, \\\"Près de 4000\\\" rather means \\\"almost 4000\\\". Guess it\\\'s a translation problem.\\\'\\\'
----
* One should perhaps point out that the Vendée as such did not exist before the revolution (the Department is what was in 1789 the western part of the Poitou), and when people talk about the rising of the Vendée they usually mean the \\\"white\\\" central part of the Department, not the edges, which were mostly \\\"blue\\\" (republican).
*** \\\'\\\'I agree, these are elements which should be implemented. Geographical elements always help. If I recall correctly, the dividing line between white and blue Vendee was also drawn along the way the peasants communities were organized (dispersed or concentrated communities). But it\\\'s a bit old in my mind, I admit. Besides, Vendee is catch-all term as the troubles affected Vendée, Maine-et-Loire, Loire-Atlantique and Deux-Sèvres\\\'\\\'
----
* Goethe\\\'s quote about Valmy may be a candidate for \\\"Beam me up, Scotty!\\\"
*** \\\'\\\'agreed\\\'\\\'
----
* One thing I do have to ask, a while ago I made a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder tab for Joseph Fouche (compared to him, Talleyrand is Undying Loyalty), who from what I gather is something of a scumbag (as per Stefan Zweig and many others). I think some other editor removed it by mistake. Any reason why I shouldn\\\'t mention his bloody backstabbing rise to power or the fact that he got away with it scott-free? Because there\\\'s no other way to mention him.
*** \\\'\\\'I am currently reading the most recent biography of Fouché by Emmanuel de Waresquiel who while he dislikes Fouché, debunks some of his black legend. I\\\'d say Backstabbing Disorder is true but doesn\\\'t reflect the totality of the character. Some say he backstabbed the Church, but he wasn\\\'t a priest to begin with. He was a war criminal at Lyon for sure. He backstabbed Robespierre (even if he had asked to marry his sister Charlotte before the Revolution) and Barras, that\\\'s true. After that, he had conflictual relationships with Napoleon and was much less skillful than Talleyrand in keeping his ministry no matter what. He disagreed with Napoleon about the Saint-Nicaise affair. Napoleon wanted it to be Jacobins and banned the few remaining ones; Fouché let it happened although he immediately saw it was a royalist plot and successfully arrested the true culprits. Napoleon sacked him because he dared to disagree with him, and be right, to boot ! Fouché went back-and-forth between his police ministry and lucrative offices, and tried to backstab Napoleon (sometimes with the help of Talleyrand) several times.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'In the end, he didn\\\'t got away scott-free. He was a minister for Louis XVIII for only 3 months before [[ReassignedToAntarctica he was sent as ambassador in Saxe, which was a disguised exile]], because the ultras hated him for being a former terrorist (i.e implementer of the Reign of Terror) and regicide. Once there, the law against regicides was voted and he lost all of his offices and functions. He spent the rest of his life in exile in Austria, monitored by Metternich and in 1820, eighteen years before Talleyrand. All in all, he was less lucky than Talleyrand.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'On the other hand, Fouché kept his attachment to republicanism and jacobinism, and made sure that former members of the Convention got state pensions to help them make a living and always tried to soften the measures taken against the leftist opposition. He also stayed loyal to most of the friends he made before the Revolution and his fellow teachers from the Oratoire (the ones he personaly knew).\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'The most surprising thing about the character may be his relationship of mutual respect with Wellington.\\\'\\\'
Changed line(s) 4 from:
n
*** \'\'I wasn\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\'t a Jerkass. It\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\'s even a prerequisite I\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \
to:
*** \\\'\\\'I wasn\\\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\\\'t a Jerkass. It\\\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\\\'s even a prerequisite I\\\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \\\"Juliette, or the prosperity of vice\\\" was published in 1801. His problems are of the same nature than the ones Flaubert had with MoralGuardians because of Madame Bovary. MoralGuardian applied here is simply more precise and less of an \\\'\\\'ad hominem\\\'\\\' argument.
*** \\\'\\\'Napoleon appears much more as a Jerkass in his attitude with Thomas Alexandre Dumas, towards whom he pettily acted out of personal jealousy and conflict.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Of course, Sade\\\'s arrestation and internment were arbitrary and autocratical and must be mentioned.\\\'\\\'
----
* Robespierre did play a role in the ousting of the Girondins,
*** \\\'\\\'That\\\'s right. I made a confusion with his attitude at the 10th August 1792. Sorrry for that.\\\'\\\'
----
* I got a large part of my info on the Vendée from Jean-Clément Martin: Blancs et Bleus dans la Vendée dechiréel (Gallimard 1987). Here he said that at close to (\\\"Près de\\\") 4000 persons were drowned in the noyades and that in total 10,000 \\\"disappeared\\\" (\\\"10 000 sans doute en totale disparaissent pendant les quelques mois que Carrier passe à Nantes\\\"). So I thought it fair to put in \\\"at least 4000\\\".
**** \\\'\\\'In fact, \\\"Près de 4000\\\" rather means \\\"almost 4000\\\". Guess it\\\'s a translation problem.\\\'\\\'
----
* One should perhaps point out that the Vendée as such did not exist before the revolution (the Department is what was in 1789 the western part of the Poitou), and when people talk about the rising of the Vendée they usually mean the \\\"white\\\" central part of the Department, not the edges, which were mostly \\\"blue\\\" (republican).
*** \\\'\\\'I agree, these are elements which should be implemented. Geographical elements always help. If I recall correctly, the dividing line between white and blue Vendee was also drawn along the way the peasants communities were organized (dispersed or concentrated communities). But it\\\'s a bit old in my mind, I admit. Besides, Vendee is catch-all term as the troubles affected Vendée, Maine-et-Loire, Loire-Atlantique and Deux-Sèvres\\\'\\\'
----
* Goethe\\\'s quote about Valmy may be a candidate for \\\"Beam me up, Scotty!\\\"
*** \\\'\\\'agreed\\\'\\\'
----
* One thing I do have to ask, a while ago I made a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder tab for Joseph Fouche (compared to him, Talleyrand is Undying Loyalty), who from what I gather is something of a scumbag (as per Stefan Zweig and many others). I think some other editor removed it by mistake. Any reason why I shouldn\\\'t mention his bloody backstabbing rise to power or the fact that he got away with it scott-free? Because there\\\'s no other way to mention him.
*** \\\'\\\'I am currently reading the most recent biography of Fouché by Emmanuel de Waresquiel who while he dislikes Fouché, debunks some of his black legend. I\\\'d say Backstabbing Disorder is true but doesn\\\'t reflect the totality of the character. Some say he backstabbed the Church, but he wasn\\\'t a priest to begin with. He was a war criminal at Lyon for sure. He backstabbed Robespierre (even if he had asked to marry his sister Charlotte before the Revolution) and Barras, that\\\'s true. After that, he had conflictual relationships with Napoleon and was much less skillful than Talleyrand in keeping his ministry no matter what. He disagreed with Napoleon about the Saint-Nicaise affair. Napoleon wanted it to be Jacobins and banned the few remaining ones; Fouché let it happened although he immediately saw it was a royalist plot and successfully arrested the true culprits. Napoleon sacked him because he dared to disagree with him, and be right, to boot ! Fouché went back-and-forth between his police ministry and lucrative offices, and tried to backstab Napoleon (sometimes with the help of Talleyrand) several times.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'In the end, he didn\\\'t got away scott-free\\\'\\\'. He was a minister for Louis XVIII for only 3 months before [[ReassignedToAntarctica he was sent as ambassador in Saxe, which was a disguised exile]], because the ultras hated him for being a former terrorist (i.e implementer of the Reign of Terror) and regicide. Once there, the law against regicides was voted and he lost all of his offices and functions. He spent the rest of his life in exile in Austria, monitored by Metternich and in 1820, eighteen years before Talleyrand. All in all, he was less lucky than Talleyrand.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'On the other hand, Fouché kept his attachment to republicanism and jacobinism, and made sure that former members of the Convention got state pensions to help them make a living and always tried to soften the measures taken against the leftist opposition. He also stayed loyal to most of the friends he made before the Revolution and his fellow teachers from the Oratoire (the ones he personaly knew).\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'The most surprising thing about the character may be his relationship of mutual respect with Wellington.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Napoleon appears much more as a Jerkass in his attitude with Thomas Alexandre Dumas, towards whom he pettily acted out of personal jealousy and conflict.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Of course, Sade\\\'s arrestation and internment were arbitrary and autocratical and must be mentioned.\\\'\\\'
----
* Robespierre did play a role in the ousting of the Girondins,
*** \\\'\\\'That\\\'s right. I made a confusion with his attitude at the 10th August 1792. Sorrry for that.\\\'\\\'
----
* I got a large part of my info on the Vendée from Jean-Clément Martin: Blancs et Bleus dans la Vendée dechiréel (Gallimard 1987). Here he said that at close to (\\\"Près de\\\") 4000 persons were drowned in the noyades and that in total 10,000 \\\"disappeared\\\" (\\\"10 000 sans doute en totale disparaissent pendant les quelques mois que Carrier passe à Nantes\\\"). So I thought it fair to put in \\\"at least 4000\\\".
**** \\\'\\\'In fact, \\\"Près de 4000\\\" rather means \\\"almost 4000\\\". Guess it\\\'s a translation problem.\\\'\\\'
----
* One should perhaps point out that the Vendée as such did not exist before the revolution (the Department is what was in 1789 the western part of the Poitou), and when people talk about the rising of the Vendée they usually mean the \\\"white\\\" central part of the Department, not the edges, which were mostly \\\"blue\\\" (republican).
*** \\\'\\\'I agree, these are elements which should be implemented. Geographical elements always help. If I recall correctly, the dividing line between white and blue Vendee was also drawn along the way the peasants communities were organized (dispersed or concentrated communities). But it\\\'s a bit old in my mind, I admit. Besides, Vendee is catch-all term as the troubles affected Vendée, Maine-et-Loire, Loire-Atlantique and Deux-Sèvres\\\'\\\'
----
* Goethe\\\'s quote about Valmy may be a candidate for \\\"Beam me up, Scotty!\\\"
*** \\\'\\\'agreed\\\'\\\'
----
* One thing I do have to ask, a while ago I made a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder tab for Joseph Fouche (compared to him, Talleyrand is Undying Loyalty), who from what I gather is something of a scumbag (as per Stefan Zweig and many others). I think some other editor removed it by mistake. Any reason why I shouldn\\\'t mention his bloody backstabbing rise to power or the fact that he got away with it scott-free? Because there\\\'s no other way to mention him.
*** \\\'\\\'I am currently reading the most recent biography of Fouché by Emmanuel de Waresquiel who while he dislikes Fouché, debunks some of his black legend. I\\\'d say Backstabbing Disorder is true but doesn\\\'t reflect the totality of the character. Some say he backstabbed the Church, but he wasn\\\'t a priest to begin with. He was a war criminal at Lyon for sure. He backstabbed Robespierre (even if he had asked to marry his sister Charlotte before the Revolution) and Barras, that\\\'s true. After that, he had conflictual relationships with Napoleon and was much less skillful than Talleyrand in keeping his ministry no matter what. He disagreed with Napoleon about the Saint-Nicaise affair. Napoleon wanted it to be Jacobins and banned the few remaining ones; Fouché let it happened although he immediately saw it was a royalist plot and successfully arrested the true culprits. Napoleon sacked him because he dared to disagree with him, and be right, to boot ! Fouché went back-and-forth between his police ministry and lucrative offices, and tried to backstab Napoleon (sometimes with the help of Talleyrand) several times.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'In the end, he didn\\\'t got away scott-free\\\'\\\'. He was a minister for Louis XVIII for only 3 months before [[ReassignedToAntarctica he was sent as ambassador in Saxe, which was a disguised exile]], because the ultras hated him for being a former terrorist (i.e implementer of the Reign of Terror) and regicide. Once there, the law against regicides was voted and he lost all of his offices and functions. He spent the rest of his life in exile in Austria, monitored by Metternich and in 1820, eighteen years before Talleyrand. All in all, he was less lucky than Talleyrand.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'On the other hand, Fouché kept his attachment to republicanism and jacobinism, and made sure that former members of the Convention got state pensions to help them make a living and always tried to soften the measures taken against the leftist opposition. He also stayed loyal to most of the friends he made before the Revolution and his fellow teachers from the Oratoire (the ones he personaly knew).\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'The most surprising thing about the character may be his relationship of mutual respect with Wellington.\\\'\\\'
Changed line(s) 4 from:
n
*** \'\'I wasn\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\'t a Jerkass. It\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\'s even a prerequisite I\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \
to:
*** \\\'\\\'I wasn\\\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\\\'t a Jerkass. It\\\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\\\'s even a prerequisite I\\\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \\\"Juliette, or the prosperity of vice\\\" was published in 1801. His problems are of the same nature than the ones Flaubert had with MoralGuardians because of Madame Bovary. MoralGuardian applied here is simply more precise and less of an \\\'\\\'ad hominem\\\'\\\' argument.
*** \\\'\\\'Napoleon appears much more as a Jerkass in his attitude with Thomas Alexandre Dumas, towards whom he pettily acted out of personal jealousy and conflict.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Of course, Sade\\\'s arrestation and internment were arbitrary and autocratical and must be mentioned.\\\'\\\'
----
* Robespierre did play a role in the ousting of the Girondins,
*** \\\'\\\'That\\\'s right. I made a confusion with his attitude at the 10th August 1792. Sorrry for that.\\\'\\\'
----
* I got a large part of my info on the Vendée from Jean-Clément Martin: Blancs et Bleus dans la Vendée dechiréel (Gallimard 1987). Here he said that at close to (\\\"Près de\\\") 4000 persons were drowned in the noyades and that in total 10,000 \\\"disappeared\\\" (\\\"10 000 sans doute en totale disparaissent pendant les quelques mois que Carrier passe à Nantes\\\"). So I thought it fair to put in \\\"at least 4000\\\".
**** \\\'\\\'In fact, \\\"Près de 4000\\\" rather means \\\"almost 4000\\\". Guess it\\\'s a translation problem.\\\'\\\'
----
* One should perhaps point out that the Vendée as such did not exist before the revolution (the Department is what was in 1789 the western part of the Poitou), and when people talk about the rising of the Vendée they usually mean the \\\"white\\\" central part of the Department, not the edges, which were mostly \\\"blue\\\" (republican).
*** \\\'\\\'I agree, these are elements which should be implemented. Geographical elements always help. If I recall correctly, the dividing line between white and blue Vendee was also drawn along the way the peasants communities were organized (dispersed or concentrated communities). But it\\\'s a bit old in my mind, I admit. Besides, Vendee is catch-all term as the troubles affected Vendée, Maine-et-Loire, Loire-Atlantique and Deux-Sèvres\\\'\\\'
----
* Goethe\\\'s quote about Valmy may be a candidate for \\\"Beam me up, Scotty!\\\"
*** \\\'\\\'agreed\\\'\\\'
----
* One thing I do have to ask, a while ago I made a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder tab for Joseph Fouche (compared to him, Talleyrand is Undying Loyalty), who from what I gather is something of a scumbag (as per Stefan Zweig and many others). I think some other editor removed it by mistake. Any reason why I shouldn\\\'t mention his bloody backstabbing rise to power or the fact that he got away with it scott-free? Because there\\\'s no other way to mention him.
*** \\\'\\\'I am currently reading the most recent biography of Fouché by Emmanuel de Waresquiel who while he dislikes Fouché, debunks some of his black legend. I\\\'d say Backstabbing Disorder is true but doesn\\\'t reflect the totality of the character. Some say he backstabbed the Church, but he wasn\\\'t a priest to begin with. He was a war criminal at Lyon for sure. He backstabbed Robespierre (even if he had asked to marry his sister Charlotte before the Revolution) and Barras, that\\\'s true. After that, he had conflictual relationships with Napoleon and was much less skillful than Talleyrand in keeping his ministry no matter what. He disagreed with Napoleon about the Saint-Nicaise affair. Napoleon wanted it to be Jacobins and banned the few remaining ones; Fouché let it happened although he immediately saw it was a royalist plot and successfully arrested the true culprits. Napoleon sacked him because he dared to disagree with him, and be right, to boot ! Fouché went back-and-forth between his police ministry and lucrative offices, and tried to backstab Napoleon (sometimes with the help of Talleyrand) several times.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'On the other hand, Fouché kept his attachment to republicanism and jacobinism, and made sure that former members of the Convention got state pensions to help them make a living and always tried to soften the measures taken against the leftist opposition. He also stayed loyal to most of the friends he made before the Revolution and his fellow teachers from the Oratoire (the ones he personaly knew).\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Napoleon appears much more as a Jerkass in his attitude with Thomas Alexandre Dumas, towards whom he pettily acted out of personal jealousy and conflict.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Of course, Sade\\\'s arrestation and internment were arbitrary and autocratical and must be mentioned.\\\'\\\'
----
* Robespierre did play a role in the ousting of the Girondins,
*** \\\'\\\'That\\\'s right. I made a confusion with his attitude at the 10th August 1792. Sorrry for that.\\\'\\\'
----
* I got a large part of my info on the Vendée from Jean-Clément Martin: Blancs et Bleus dans la Vendée dechiréel (Gallimard 1987). Here he said that at close to (\\\"Près de\\\") 4000 persons were drowned in the noyades and that in total 10,000 \\\"disappeared\\\" (\\\"10 000 sans doute en totale disparaissent pendant les quelques mois que Carrier passe à Nantes\\\"). So I thought it fair to put in \\\"at least 4000\\\".
**** \\\'\\\'In fact, \\\"Près de 4000\\\" rather means \\\"almost 4000\\\". Guess it\\\'s a translation problem.\\\'\\\'
----
* One should perhaps point out that the Vendée as such did not exist before the revolution (the Department is what was in 1789 the western part of the Poitou), and when people talk about the rising of the Vendée they usually mean the \\\"white\\\" central part of the Department, not the edges, which were mostly \\\"blue\\\" (republican).
*** \\\'\\\'I agree, these are elements which should be implemented. Geographical elements always help. If I recall correctly, the dividing line between white and blue Vendee was also drawn along the way the peasants communities were organized (dispersed or concentrated communities). But it\\\'s a bit old in my mind, I admit. Besides, Vendee is catch-all term as the troubles affected Vendée, Maine-et-Loire, Loire-Atlantique and Deux-Sèvres\\\'\\\'
----
* Goethe\\\'s quote about Valmy may be a candidate for \\\"Beam me up, Scotty!\\\"
*** \\\'\\\'agreed\\\'\\\'
----
* One thing I do have to ask, a while ago I made a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder tab for Joseph Fouche (compared to him, Talleyrand is Undying Loyalty), who from what I gather is something of a scumbag (as per Stefan Zweig and many others). I think some other editor removed it by mistake. Any reason why I shouldn\\\'t mention his bloody backstabbing rise to power or the fact that he got away with it scott-free? Because there\\\'s no other way to mention him.
*** \\\'\\\'I am currently reading the most recent biography of Fouché by Emmanuel de Waresquiel who while he dislikes Fouché, debunks some of his black legend. I\\\'d say Backstabbing Disorder is true but doesn\\\'t reflect the totality of the character. Some say he backstabbed the Church, but he wasn\\\'t a priest to begin with. He was a war criminal at Lyon for sure. He backstabbed Robespierre (even if he had asked to marry his sister Charlotte before the Revolution) and Barras, that\\\'s true. After that, he had conflictual relationships with Napoleon and was much less skillful than Talleyrand in keeping his ministry no matter what. He disagreed with Napoleon about the Saint-Nicaise affair. Napoleon wanted it to be Jacobins and banned the few remaining ones; Fouché let it happened although he immediately saw it was a royalist plot and successfully arrested the true culprits. Napoleon sacked him because he dared to disagree with him, and be right, to boot ! Fouché went back-and-forth between his police ministry and lucrative offices, and tried to backstab Napoleon (sometimes with the help of Talleyrand) several times.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'On the other hand, Fouché kept his attachment to republicanism and jacobinism, and made sure that former members of the Convention got state pensions to help them make a living and always tried to soften the measures taken against the leftist opposition. He also stayed loyal to most of the friends he made before the Revolution and his fellow teachers from the Oratoire (the ones he personaly knew).\\\'\\\'
Changed line(s) 4 from:
n
*** \'\'I wasn\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\'t a Jerkass. It\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\'s even a prerequisite I\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \
to:
*** \\\'\\\'I wasn\\\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\\\'t a Jerkass. It\\\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\\\'s even a prerequisite I\\\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \\\"Juliette, or the prosperity of vice\\\" was published in 1801. His problems are of the same nature than the ones Flaubert had with MoralGuardians because of Madame Bovary. MoralGuardian applied here is simply more precise and less of an \\\'\\\'ad hominem\\\'\\\' argument.
*** \\\'\\\'Napoleon appears much more as a Jerkass in his attitude with Thomas Alexandre Dumas, towards whom he pettily acted out of personal jealousy and conflict.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Of course, Sade\\\'s arrestation and internment were arbitrary and autocratical and must be mentioned.\\\'\\\'
----
* Robespierre did play a role in the ousting of the Girondins,
*** \\\'\\\'That\\\'s right. I made a confusion with his attitude at the 10th August 1792. Sorrry for that.\\\'\\\'
----
* I got a large part of my info on the Vendée from Jean-Clément Martin: Blancs et Bleus dans la Vendée dechiréel (Gallimard 1987). Here he said that at close to (\\\"Près de\\\") 4000 persons were drowned in the noyades and that in total 10,000 \\\"disappeared\\\" (\\\"10 000 sans doute en totale disparaissent pendant les quelques mois que Carrier passe à Nantes\\\"). So I thought it fair to put in \\\"at least 4000\\\".
**** \\\'\\\'In fact, \\\"Près de 4000\\\" rather means \\\"almost 4000\\\". Guess it\\\'s a translation problem.\\\'\\\'
----
* One should perhaps point out that the Vendée as such did not exist before the revolution (the Department is what was in 1789 the western part of the Poitou), and when people talk about the rising of the Vendée they usually mean the \\\"white\\\" central part of the Department, not the edges, which were mostly \\\"blue\\\" (republican).
*** \\\'\\\'I agree, these are elements which should be implemented. Geographical elements always help. If I recall correctly, the dividing line between white and blue Vendee was also drawn along the way the peasants communities were organized (dispersed or concentrated communities). But it\\\'s a bit old in my mind, I admit. Besides, Vendee is catch-all term as the troubles affected Vendée, Maine-et-Loire, Loire-Atlantique and Deux-Sèvres\\\'\\\'
----
* Goethe\\\'s quote about Valmy may be a candidate for \\\"Beam me up, Scotty!\\\"
*** \\\'\\\'agreed\\\'\\\'
----
* One thing I do have to ask, a while ago I made a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder tab for Joseph Fouche (compared to him, Talleyrand is Undying Loyalty), who from what I gather is something of a scumbag (as per Stefan Zweig and many others). I think some other editor removed it by mistake. Any reason why I shouldn\\\'t mention his bloody backstabbing rise to power or the fact that he got away with it scott-free? Because there\\\'s no other way to mention him.
*** \\\'\\\'I am currently reading the most recent biography of Fouché by Emmanuel de Waresquiel who while he dislikes Fouché, debunks some of his black legend. I\\\'d say BacktabbingDisorder is true but doesn\\\'t reflect the totality of the character. Some say he backstabbed the Church, but he wasn\\\'t a priest to begin with. He was a war criminal at Lyon for sure. He backstabbed Robespierre (even if he had asked to marry his sister Charlotte before the Revolution) and Barras, that\\\'s true. After that, he had conflictual relationships with Napoleon and was much less skillful than Talleyrand in keeping his ministry no matter what. He disagreed with Napoleon about the Saint-Nicaise affair. Napoleon wanted it to be Jacobins and banned the few remaining ones; Fouché let it happened although he immediately saw it was a royalist plot and successfully arrested the true culprits. Napoleon sacked him because he dared to disagree with him, and be right, to boot ! Fouché went back-and-forth between his police ministry and lucrative offices, and tried to backstab Napoleon (sometimes with the help of Talleyrand) several times.
On the other hand, Fouché kept his attachment to republicanism and jacobinism, and made sure that former members of the Convention got state pensions to help them make a living and always tried to soften the measures taken against the leftist opposition. He also stayed loyal to most of the friends he made before the Revolution and his fellow teachers from the Oratoire (the ones he personaly knew).\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Napoleon appears much more as a Jerkass in his attitude with Thomas Alexandre Dumas, towards whom he pettily acted out of personal jealousy and conflict.\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'Of course, Sade\\\'s arrestation and internment were arbitrary and autocratical and must be mentioned.\\\'\\\'
----
* Robespierre did play a role in the ousting of the Girondins,
*** \\\'\\\'That\\\'s right. I made a confusion with his attitude at the 10th August 1792. Sorrry for that.\\\'\\\'
----
* I got a large part of my info on the Vendée from Jean-Clément Martin: Blancs et Bleus dans la Vendée dechiréel (Gallimard 1987). Here he said that at close to (\\\"Près de\\\") 4000 persons were drowned in the noyades and that in total 10,000 \\\"disappeared\\\" (\\\"10 000 sans doute en totale disparaissent pendant les quelques mois que Carrier passe à Nantes\\\"). So I thought it fair to put in \\\"at least 4000\\\".
**** \\\'\\\'In fact, \\\"Près de 4000\\\" rather means \\\"almost 4000\\\". Guess it\\\'s a translation problem.\\\'\\\'
----
* One should perhaps point out that the Vendée as such did not exist before the revolution (the Department is what was in 1789 the western part of the Poitou), and when people talk about the rising of the Vendée they usually mean the \\\"white\\\" central part of the Department, not the edges, which were mostly \\\"blue\\\" (republican).
*** \\\'\\\'I agree, these are elements which should be implemented. Geographical elements always help. If I recall correctly, the dividing line between white and blue Vendee was also drawn along the way the peasants communities were organized (dispersed or concentrated communities). But it\\\'s a bit old in my mind, I admit. Besides, Vendee is catch-all term as the troubles affected Vendée, Maine-et-Loire, Loire-Atlantique and Deux-Sèvres\\\'\\\'
----
* Goethe\\\'s quote about Valmy may be a candidate for \\\"Beam me up, Scotty!\\\"
*** \\\'\\\'agreed\\\'\\\'
----
* One thing I do have to ask, a while ago I made a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder tab for Joseph Fouche (compared to him, Talleyrand is Undying Loyalty), who from what I gather is something of a scumbag (as per Stefan Zweig and many others). I think some other editor removed it by mistake. Any reason why I shouldn\\\'t mention his bloody backstabbing rise to power or the fact that he got away with it scott-free? Because there\\\'s no other way to mention him.
*** \\\'\\\'I am currently reading the most recent biography of Fouché by Emmanuel de Waresquiel who while he dislikes Fouché, debunks some of his black legend. I\\\'d say BacktabbingDisorder is true but doesn\\\'t reflect the totality of the character. Some say he backstabbed the Church, but he wasn\\\'t a priest to begin with. He was a war criminal at Lyon for sure. He backstabbed Robespierre (even if he had asked to marry his sister Charlotte before the Revolution) and Barras, that\\\'s true. After that, he had conflictual relationships with Napoleon and was much less skillful than Talleyrand in keeping his ministry no matter what. He disagreed with Napoleon about the Saint-Nicaise affair. Napoleon wanted it to be Jacobins and banned the few remaining ones; Fouché let it happened although he immediately saw it was a royalist plot and successfully arrested the true culprits. Napoleon sacked him because he dared to disagree with him, and be right, to boot ! Fouché went back-and-forth between his police ministry and lucrative offices, and tried to backstab Napoleon (sometimes with the help of Talleyrand) several times.
On the other hand, Fouché kept his attachment to republicanism and jacobinism, and made sure that former members of the Convention got state pensions to help them make a living and always tried to soften the measures taken against the leftist opposition. He also stayed loyal to most of the friends he made before the Revolution and his fellow teachers from the Oratoire (the ones he personaly knew).\\\'\\\'
Changed line(s) 3 from:
n
Furthermore, the point about De Sade stands. I don\'t care if Napoleon said it was immoral, it was still incredibly petty and jerkish to pick on a poor writer who wasn\'t even criticizing him politically, was unaffiliated with any radical politics and then dooming him to confinement just because he read an old book that he had published before the Revolution (and for which Sade already did time in Bastille).
----->I wasn\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\'t a Jerkass. It\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\'s even a prerequisite I\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \
----->I wasn\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\'t a Jerkass. It\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\'s even a prerequisite I\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \
to:
*Furthermore, the point about De Sade stands. I don\\\'t care if Napoleon said it was immoral, it was still incredibly petty and jerkish to pick on a poor writer who wasn\\\'t even criticizing him politically, was unaffiliated with any radical politics and then dooming him to confinement just because he read an old book that he had published before the Revolution (and for which Sade already did time in Bastille).
*** \\\'\\\'I wasn\\\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\\\'t a Jerkass. It\\\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\\\'s even a prerequisite I\\\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \\\"Juliette, or the prosperity of vice\\\" was published in 1801. His problems are of the same nature than the ones Flaubert had with MoralGuardians because of Madame Bovary. MoralGuardian applied here is simply more precise and less of an \\\'\\\'ad hominem\\\'\\\' argument.
Napoleon appears much more as a Jerkass in his attitude with Thomas Alexandre Dumas, towards whom he pettily acted out of personal jealousy and conflict.
Of course, Sade\\\'s arrestation and internment were arbitrary and autocratical and must be mentioned.\\\'\\\'
----
* Robespierre did play a role in the ousting of the Girondins,
*** \\\'\\\'That\\\'s right. I made a confusion with his attitude at the 10th August 1792. Sorrry for that.\\\'\\\'
----
* I got a large part of my info on the Vendée from Jean-Clément Martin: Blancs et Bleus dans la Vendée dechiréel (Gallimard 1987). Here he said that at close to (\\\"Près de\\\") 4000 persons were drowned in the noyades and that in total 10,000 \\\"disappeared\\\" (\\\"10 000 sans doute en totale disparaissent pendant les quelques mois que Carrier passe à Nantes\\\"). So I thought it fair to put in \\\"at least 4000\\\".
**** \\\'\\\'In fact, \\\"Près de 4000\\\" rather means \\\"almost 4000\\\". Guess it\\\'s a translation problem.\\\'\\\'
----
* One should perhaps point out that the Vendée as such did not exist before the revolution (the Department is what was in 1789 the western part of the Poitou), and when people talk about the rising of the Vendée they usually mean the \\\"white\\\" central part of the Department, not the edges, which were mostly \\\"blue\\\" (republican).
*** \\\'\\\'I agree, these are elements which should be implemented. Geographical elements always help. If I recall correctly, the dividing line between white and blue Vendee was also drawn along the way the peasants communities were organized (dispersed or concentrated communities). But it\\\'s a bit old in my mind, I admit. Besides, Vendee is catch-all term as the troubles affected Vendée, Maine-et-Loire, Loire-Atlantique and Deux-Sèvres\\\'\\\'
----
* Goethe\\\'s quote about Valmy may be a candidate for \\\"Beam me up, Scotty!\\\"
*** \\\'\\\'agreed\\\'\\\'
----
* One thing I do have to ask, a while ago I made a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder tab for Joseph Fouche (compared to him, Talleyrand is Undying Loyalty), who from what I gather is something of a scumbag (as per Stefan Zweig and many others). I think some other editor removed it by mistake. Any reason why I shouldn\\\'t mention his bloody backstabbing rise to power or the fact that he got away with it scott-free? Because there\\\'s no other way to mention him.
*** \\\'\\\'I am currently reading the most recent biography of Fouché by Emmanuel de Waresquiel who while he dislikes Fouché, debunks some of his black legend. I\\\'d say BacktabbingDisorder is true but doesn\\\'t reflect the totality of the character. Some say he backstabbed the Church, but he wasn\\\'t a priest to begin with. He was a war criminal at Lyon for sure. He backstabbed Robespierre (even if he had asked to marry his sister Charlotte before the Revolution) and Barras, that\\\'s true. After that, he had conflictual relationships with Napoleon and was much less skillful than Talleyrand in keeping his ministry no matter what. He disagreed with Napoleon about the Saint-Nicaise affair. Napoleon wanted it to be Jacobins and banned the few remaining ones; Fouché let it happened although he immediately saw it was a royalist plot and successfully arrested the true culprits. Napoleon sacked him because he dared to disagree with him, and be right, to boot ! Fouché went back-and-forth between his police ministry and lucrative offices, and tried to backstab Napoleon (sometimes with the help of Talleyrand) several times.
On the other hand, Fouché kept his attachment to republicanism and jacobinism, and made sure that former members of the Convention got state pensions to help them make a living and always tried to soften the measures taken against the leftist opposition. He also stayed loyal to most of the friends he made before the Revolution and his fellow teachers from the Oratoire (the ones he personaly knew).\\\'\\\'
*** \\\'\\\'I wasn\\\'t saying that Bonaparte wasn\\\'t a Jerkass. It\\\'s perfectly possible to be a MoralGuardian and a Jerkass, it\\\'s even a prerequisite I\\\'d say. Simply, Jerkass is too vague and gives the impression that it was some personal whim from Napoleon while it was part of his whole project to have a more socially conservative society. It goes in the same move that the removal of the no-fault divorce and the Concordat. Furthermore, Sade was taken to the asylum because \\\"Juliette, or the prosperity of vice\\\" was published in 1801. His problems are of the same nature than the ones Flaubert had with MoralGuardians because of Madame Bovary. MoralGuardian applied here is simply more precise and less of an \\\'\\\'ad hominem\\\'\\\' argument.
Napoleon appears much more as a Jerkass in his attitude with Thomas Alexandre Dumas, towards whom he pettily acted out of personal jealousy and conflict.
Of course, Sade\\\'s arrestation and internment were arbitrary and autocratical and must be mentioned.\\\'\\\'
----
* Robespierre did play a role in the ousting of the Girondins,
*** \\\'\\\'That\\\'s right. I made a confusion with his attitude at the 10th August 1792. Sorrry for that.\\\'\\\'
----
* I got a large part of my info on the Vendée from Jean-Clément Martin: Blancs et Bleus dans la Vendée dechiréel (Gallimard 1987). Here he said that at close to (\\\"Près de\\\") 4000 persons were drowned in the noyades and that in total 10,000 \\\"disappeared\\\" (\\\"10 000 sans doute en totale disparaissent pendant les quelques mois que Carrier passe à Nantes\\\"). So I thought it fair to put in \\\"at least 4000\\\".
**** \\\'\\\'In fact, \\\"Près de 4000\\\" rather means \\\"almost 4000\\\". Guess it\\\'s a translation problem.\\\'\\\'
----
* One should perhaps point out that the Vendée as such did not exist before the revolution (the Department is what was in 1789 the western part of the Poitou), and when people talk about the rising of the Vendée they usually mean the \\\"white\\\" central part of the Department, not the edges, which were mostly \\\"blue\\\" (republican).
*** \\\'\\\'I agree, these are elements which should be implemented. Geographical elements always help. If I recall correctly, the dividing line between white and blue Vendee was also drawn along the way the peasants communities were organized (dispersed or concentrated communities). But it\\\'s a bit old in my mind, I admit. Besides, Vendee is catch-all term as the troubles affected Vendée, Maine-et-Loire, Loire-Atlantique and Deux-Sèvres\\\'\\\'
----
* Goethe\\\'s quote about Valmy may be a candidate for \\\"Beam me up, Scotty!\\\"
*** \\\'\\\'agreed\\\'\\\'
----
* One thing I do have to ask, a while ago I made a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder tab for Joseph Fouche (compared to him, Talleyrand is Undying Loyalty), who from what I gather is something of a scumbag (as per Stefan Zweig and many others). I think some other editor removed it by mistake. Any reason why I shouldn\\\'t mention his bloody backstabbing rise to power or the fact that he got away with it scott-free? Because there\\\'s no other way to mention him.
*** \\\'\\\'I am currently reading the most recent biography of Fouché by Emmanuel de Waresquiel who while he dislikes Fouché, debunks some of his black legend. I\\\'d say BacktabbingDisorder is true but doesn\\\'t reflect the totality of the character. Some say he backstabbed the Church, but he wasn\\\'t a priest to begin with. He was a war criminal at Lyon for sure. He backstabbed Robespierre (even if he had asked to marry his sister Charlotte before the Revolution) and Barras, that\\\'s true. After that, he had conflictual relationships with Napoleon and was much less skillful than Talleyrand in keeping his ministry no matter what. He disagreed with Napoleon about the Saint-Nicaise affair. Napoleon wanted it to be Jacobins and banned the few remaining ones; Fouché let it happened although he immediately saw it was a royalist plot and successfully arrested the true culprits. Napoleon sacked him because he dared to disagree with him, and be right, to boot ! Fouché went back-and-forth between his police ministry and lucrative offices, and tried to backstab Napoleon (sometimes with the help of Talleyrand) several times.
On the other hand, Fouché kept his attachment to republicanism and jacobinism, and made sure that former members of the Convention got state pensions to help them make a living and always tried to soften the measures taken against the leftist opposition. He also stayed loyal to most of the friends he made before the Revolution and his fellow teachers from the Oratoire (the ones he personaly knew).\\\'\\\'
